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	<title>Comments on: Ballot Fraud, the Blogosphere, and Fame-Seeking Intellectuals in Russia</title>
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	<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2009/10/26/ballot-fraud-the-blogosphere-and-fame-seeking-intellectuals-in-russia/</link>
	<description>An Irreverent Look at the Glocalized World</description>
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		<title>By: Catherine</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2009/10/26/ballot-fraud-the-blogosphere-and-fame-seeking-intellectuals-in-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-250989</link>
		<dc:creator>Catherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 02:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=1846#comment-250989</guid>
		<description>Pivoting off Ivan&#039;s comment, in my undergrad studies of communication, one of the two or three most influential classes I took was intercultural communications.  I remember thinking clearly that we were all seriously fucked (and this was pre-9/11) because it turns out that humans are just inherently not interested in hearing each other.  I also remember thinking that if we could solve that problem we&#039;d have basically achieved world peace.   

Activism seems to be inherently not about hearing the other, but trying to make yourself heard, which may be why online activism (co-opting a naturally two-way medium for broadcast purposes) hasn&#039;t been so successful in fomenting sustained social change (ie: Every Color of the Rainbow Revolutions like in Iran and Ukraine).  It might also explain why GV, a project more focused on engagement than pushing a point of view, has been so successful but has also sometimes run up against tension with the human rights community.  The &#039;long and slow process&#039; doesn&#039;t naturally fit with the objectives of organizations that are trying to create immediate awareness.

This might be a ridiculously provocative thing to say, but sometimes it seems that HR orgs and oppressive regimes have the same tendency to need to &quot;control the message.&quot;  It&#039;d be nice if more HR orgs recognized that their potential for change is in facilitating whatever conversation is out there waiting to be had.   

Anyway, this is completely off topic and not at all informed by any knowledge of the regional context (David, you&#039;re welcome for saving you from being the least informed on this comment thread) so feel free to disregard at will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.12   Windows XP<p>
Pivoting off Ivan&#8217;s comment, in my undergrad studies of communication, one of the two or three most influential classes I took was intercultural communications.  I remember thinking clearly that we were all seriously fucked (and this was pre-9/11) because it turns out that humans are just inherently not interested in hearing each other.  I also remember thinking that if we could solve that problem we&#8217;d have basically achieved world peace.   </p>
<p>Activism seems to be inherently not about hearing the other, but trying to make yourself heard, which may be why online activism (co-opting a naturally two-way medium for broadcast purposes) hasn&#8217;t been so successful in fomenting sustained social change (ie: Every Color of the Rainbow Revolutions like in Iran and Ukraine).  It might also explain why GV, a project more focused on engagement than pushing a point of view, has been so successful but has also sometimes run up against tension with the human rights community.  The &#8216;long and slow process&#8217; doesn&#8217;t naturally fit with the objectives of organizations that are trying to create immediate awareness.</p>
<p>This might be a ridiculously provocative thing to say, but sometimes it seems that HR orgs and oppressive regimes have the same tendency to need to &#8220;control the message.&#8221;  It&#8217;d be nice if more HR orgs recognized that their potential for change is in facilitating whatever conversation is out there waiting to be had.   </p>
<p>Anyway, this is completely off topic and not at all informed by any knowledge of the regional context (David, you&#8217;re welcome for saving you from being the least informed on this comment thread) so feel free to disregard at will.</p>
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		<title>By: oso</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2009/10/26/ballot-fraud-the-blogosphere-and-fame-seeking-intellectuals-in-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-250951</link>
		<dc:creator>oso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=1846#comment-250951</guid>
		<description>Evgeny,

I knew that you would come up with something witty in response ... but to gripe that this post is too much about Russia and not enough about you, that is very clever. Don&#039;t worry friend, I&#039;m sure there will be a new incarnation of Valleywag dedicated especially to internet pundits and that the details of your personal life will flow forth. In the mean time, I&#039;ve learned that your standard answer to the &quot;what should we do&quot; question is &quot;read the last chapter of my book&quot;. And so I will. But I warn you: it better be one hell of a book chapter.

Ivan,

I think what is most remarkable about our work (which I consider to be &#039;improving communication to try to improve society&#039;) is how unremarkable it is; how long and slow of a process it is. So, a (small) part of me always cheers Evgeny on when he points out the lunacy of &quot;the revolution will be tweeted&quot; headlines. But, like you, I think the best thing to do is find what works, what doesn&#039;t, and move on.

Also, I should admit to both of you and to all that I know next to nothing about Russia in particular and about the region in general. So when I say that Russian intellectuals all move abroad to seek fame I&#039;m really just speaking out of my ass based on a single Le Monde Diplomatique article. But I&#039;ll keep my eyes out for that &quot;Dead Again&quot; book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[Safari 531.9   Mac OS X<p>
Evgeny,</p>
<p>I knew that you would come up with something witty in response &#8230; but to gripe that this post is too much about Russia and not enough about you, that is very clever. Don&#8217;t worry friend, I&#8217;m sure there will be a new incarnation of Valleywag dedicated especially to internet pundits and that the details of your personal life will flow forth. In the mean time, I&#8217;ve learned that your standard answer to the &#8220;what should we do&#8221; question is &#8220;read the last chapter of my book&#8221;. And so I will. But I warn you: it better be one hell of a book chapter.</p>
<p>Ivan,</p>
<p>I think what is most remarkable about our work (which I consider to be &#8216;improving communication to try to improve society&#8217;) is how unremarkable it is; how long and slow of a process it is. So, a (small) part of me always cheers Evgeny on when he points out the lunacy of &#8220;the revolution will be tweeted&#8221; headlines. But, like you, I think the best thing to do is find what works, what doesn&#8217;t, and move on.</p>
<p>Also, I should admit to both of you and to all that I know next to nothing about Russia in particular and about the region in general. So when I say that Russian intellectuals all move abroad to seek fame I&#8217;m really just speaking out of my ass based on a single Le Monde Diplomatique article. But I&#8217;ll keep my eyes out for that &#8220;Dead Again&#8221; book.</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Sigal</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2009/10/26/ballot-fraud-the-blogosphere-and-fame-seeking-intellectuals-in-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-250950</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Sigal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=1846#comment-250950</guid>
		<description>PS - I know Evgeny&#039;s argument isn&#039;t so reductive/deterministic - just that I&#039;m more interested in the &quot;thinking&quot; and &quot;doing&quot; bits.</description>
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PS &#8211; I know Evgeny&#8217;s argument isn&#8217;t so reductive/deterministic &#8211; just that I&#8217;m more interested in the &#8220;thinking&#8221; and &#8220;doing&#8221; bits.</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Sigal</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2009/10/26/ballot-fraud-the-blogosphere-and-fame-seeking-intellectuals-in-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-250948</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Sigal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=1846#comment-250948</guid>
		<description>Hi David, Evgeny,

A great place to start delving into the question of the Russian intelligencia&#039;s relative impotence and lack of relevance in modern Russia is Masha Gessen&#039;s &quot;Dead Again&quot;, published in 1997. http://www.versobooks.com/books/ghij/g-titles/gessen_intelligentsia.shtml. An awful lot has happened to the intelligencia since then, but it will help with historical perspective. I&#039;d argue that the Russian intelligencia lack of relevance to Russia&#039;s current political scene has less to do with opportunities to travel and live abroad (after all, plenty of pro-regime Russians live abroad too), and more to do with the nature of Russian public discourse (or lack thereof) and more specifically with the way that power is propagated in Russia, such that public discourse isn&#039;t usually allowed to touch the truths that govern Russian social, economic, and political life.  

More on online activism in another post. A single thought cast in the ether for today - one of the great things about social science is that it teaches us that we can observe, and then alter, our behavior. We may have animal tendencies toward  certain kinds of behavior (a subject much disputed), but we also learn from observation. Online activism may sometimes be disruptive, or useless, along the lines of Evgeny&#039;s thinking, or divisive, along Cass Sunstein&#039;s, but that is not a determined relation, and claims to that effect are both overstated and, to me, just not that interesting. I&#039;m much more compelled by how we can design projects that are effective - for activism, or online journalism, or for whatever we&#039;re trying to achieve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[Mozilla Firefox 3.5.3   Mac OS X<p>
Hi David, Evgeny,</p>
<p>A great place to start delving into the question of the Russian intelligencia&#8217;s relative impotence and lack of relevance in modern Russia is Masha Gessen&#8217;s &#8220;Dead Again&#8221;, published in 1997. <a href="http://www.versobooks.com/books/ghij/g-titles/gessen_intelligentsia.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.versobooks.com/books/ghij/g-titles/gessen_intelligentsia.shtml</a>. An awful lot has happened to the intelligencia since then, but it will help with historical perspective. I&#8217;d argue that the Russian intelligencia lack of relevance to Russia&#8217;s current political scene has less to do with opportunities to travel and live abroad (after all, plenty of pro-regime Russians live abroad too), and more to do with the nature of Russian public discourse (or lack thereof) and more specifically with the way that power is propagated in Russia, such that public discourse isn&#8217;t usually allowed to touch the truths that govern Russian social, economic, and political life.  </p>
<p>More on online activism in another post. A single thought cast in the ether for today &#8211; one of the great things about social science is that it teaches us that we can observe, and then alter, our behavior. We may have animal tendencies toward  certain kinds of behavior (a subject much disputed), but we also learn from observation. Online activism may sometimes be disruptive, or useless, along the lines of Evgeny&#8217;s thinking, or divisive, along Cass Sunstein&#8217;s, but that is not a determined relation, and claims to that effect are both overstated and, to me, just not that interesting. I&#8217;m much more compelled by how we can design projects that are effective &#8211; for activism, or online journalism, or for whatever we&#8217;re trying to achieve.</p>
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		<title>By: Evgeny</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2009/10/26/ballot-fraud-the-blogosphere-and-fame-seeking-intellectuals-in-russia/comment-page-1/#comment-250946</link>
		<dc:creator>Evgeny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=1846#comment-250946</guid>
		<description>David, thanks for the free PR, which I always appreciate! Guilty as charged; I guess I have to wave goodbye to a prospective Noble Peace Prize, now? Next time, though, I hope you can devote an ENTIRE post to my persona - aren&#039;t we friends and all - instead of lumping me with some regional problems in Russia and Ukraine. Those bore people and I fear they never finished your beautiful essay on my imperfections.  Basically, I am looking forward to a strong, intellectually coherent 5000-word minimum takedown of my argument (preferably expressed in a venue that is longer than a 12 min talk or a 140 character Twitter feed, but hey, if you can analyze all of my tweets this way, I&#039;ll be happy, too). Even better if you post to the PBS blog :-) 

p.s. and who are these pesky Russian intellectuals that left in early 1990s and became fashionable? I want to PayPal them some dough and get some advice re fashion....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[Google Chrome 3.0.195.27   Windows XP<p>
David, thanks for the free PR, which I always appreciate! Guilty as charged; I guess I have to wave goodbye to a prospective Noble Peace Prize, now? Next time, though, I hope you can devote an ENTIRE post to my persona &#8211; aren&#8217;t we friends and all &#8211; instead of lumping me with some regional problems in Russia and Ukraine. Those bore people and I fear they never finished your beautiful essay on my imperfections.  Basically, I am looking forward to a strong, intellectually coherent 5000-word minimum takedown of my argument (preferably expressed in a venue that is longer than a 12 min talk or a 140 character Twitter feed, but hey, if you can analyze all of my tweets this way, I&#8217;ll be happy, too). Even better if you post to the PBS blog <img src='http://el-oso.net/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>p.s. and who are these pesky Russian intellectuals that left in early 1990s and became fashionable? I want to PayPal them some dough and get some advice re fashion&#8230;.</p>
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