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	<title>Comments on: Sorrow Drips Into Your Heart Through A Pinhole</title>
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	<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/</link>
	<description>An Irreverent Look at the Glocalized World</description>
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		<title>By: oso</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/comment-page-1/#comment-49514</link>
		<dc:creator>oso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=692#comment-49514</guid>
		<description>May I suggest a more provocative title?

Just kiddin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I suggest a more provocative title?</p>
<p>Just kiddin.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Laufer</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/comment-page-1/#comment-49501</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Laufer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=692#comment-49501</guid>
		<description>I most agree that there is need for a technical analysis of what might occur were the border to be opened.  I felt my role was to generate debate, such as what occurred during a talk I gave this week in Sonoma County where members the audience expressed their horror at the idea of more mixing of the so-called singular American culture with that south of the border.  And to spur such debate I believe my best device is to pass along stories such as those in the book (and I appreciate your positive response to them).  And since you provided the opening, thank, allow me to draw attention to my upcoming book, MISSION REJECTED, which chronicles soldiers returning from the Iraq war opposed to it and those who refuse to go.  As you probably know, there is a nasty Mexican connection: the luring of Mexicans by recruiters with suggestions of fast-tracked citizenship and the perverse offering of post mortum citizenship for Mexican national soldiers killed on duty in Iraq.  Chelsea Green is the publisher (www.chelseagreen.com), an audio blog chronicling the book in progress is due in place soon.  Come visit!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I most agree that there is need for a technical analysis of what might occur were the border to be opened.  I felt my role was to generate debate, such as what occurred during a talk I gave this week in Sonoma County where members the audience expressed their horror at the idea of more mixing of the so-called singular American culture with that south of the border.  And to spur such debate I believe my best device is to pass along stories such as those in the book (and I appreciate your positive response to them).  And since you provided the opening, thank, allow me to draw attention to my upcoming book, MISSION REJECTED, which chronicles soldiers returning from the Iraq war opposed to it and those who refuse to go.  As you probably know, there is a nasty Mexican connection: the luring of Mexicans by recruiters with suggestions of fast-tracked citizenship and the perverse offering of post mortum citizenship for Mexican national soldiers killed on duty in Iraq.  Chelsea Green is the publisher (www.chelseagreen.com), an audio blog chronicling the book in progress is due in place soon.  Come visit!</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Laufer</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/comment-page-1/#comment-49500</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Laufer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=692#comment-49500</guid>
		<description>I most agree that there is need for a technical analysis of what might occur were the border to be opened.  I felt my role was to generate debate, such as what occurred during a talk I gave this week in Sonoma County where members the audience expressed their horror at the idea of more mixing of the so-called singular American culture with that south of the border.  And to spur such debate I believe my best device is to pass along stories such as those in the book (and I appreciate your positive response to them).  And since you provided the opening, thank, allow me to draw attention to my upcoming book, MISSION REJECTED, which chronicles sodiers returning from the Iraq war opposed to it and those who refuse to go.  As you probably know, there is a nasty Mexican connection: the luring of Mexicans by recruiters with suggestions of fast-tracked citizenship and the perverse offering of post mortum citizenship for Mexican national soldiers killed on duty in Iraq.  Chelsea Green is the publisher (www.chelseagreen.com), an audio blog chronicling the book in progress is due in place soon.  Come visit!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I most agree that there is need for a technical analysis of what might occur were the border to be opened.  I felt my role was to generate debate, such as what occurred during a talk I gave this week in Sonoma County where members the audience expressed their horror at the idea of more mixing of the so-called singular American culture with that south of the border.  And to spur such debate I believe my best device is to pass along stories such as those in the book (and I appreciate your positive response to them).  And since you provided the opening, thank, allow me to draw attention to my upcoming book, MISSION REJECTED, which chronicles sodiers returning from the Iraq war opposed to it and those who refuse to go.  As you probably know, there is a nasty Mexican connection: the luring of Mexicans by recruiters with suggestions of fast-tracked citizenship and the perverse offering of post mortum citizenship for Mexican national soldiers killed on duty in Iraq.  Chelsea Green is the publisher (www.chelseagreen.com), an audio blog chronicling the book in progress is due in place soon.  Come visit!</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Laufer</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/comment-page-1/#comment-49379</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Laufer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2005 22:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=692#comment-49379</guid>
		<description>I am so pleased you read my book WETBACK NATION and that its ideas stimulated such productive discussion on your intriguing blog.  I am a taste curious why you would find it necessary to trash my title and why you suggested that some reporting I&#039;ve done in the Borderlands, Mexico and the U.S. over the last twenty years should not be used in the book.  No hay de qué.  I also wonder if I successfully communicated to you that WETBACK NATION refers not to Mexicans coming north but what Americans are making of our nation with restrictive immigration policies vis-a-vis Mexican immigrants without documentation.  Con un abrazo, Peter Laufer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am so pleased you read my book WETBACK NATION and that its ideas stimulated such productive discussion on your intriguing blog.  I am a taste curious why you would find it necessary to trash my title and why you suggested that some reporting I&#8217;ve done in the Borderlands, Mexico and the U.S. over the last twenty years should not be used in the book.  No hay de qué.  I also wonder if I successfully communicated to you that WETBACK NATION refers not to Mexicans coming north but what Americans are making of our nation with restrictive immigration policies vis-a-vis Mexican immigrants without documentation.  Con un abrazo, Peter Laufer</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Cereal</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/comment-page-1/#comment-48775</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Cereal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=692#comment-48775</guid>
		<description>Mr. Oso, 

One of my recent classes was devoted to this issue though remarkably, in the hour and a half or so we spent discussing, the question of “what would happen if the border were to be erased?” didn’t come up.  (Or rather it didn’t occur to me to ask).  Instead we went in circles about the current effect of immigration—legal and illegal—on the people of the US, Mexico, and other countries making these journeys as well as the people in the receiving countries.  (For example, what effect does having a chino-headed gringo come teach in México have on its people/culture?  The economy?  Or of China, for that matter).  The point is, our hackneyed platica didn’t really get us anywhere.  We merely agreed that it wasn’t really working out right now, but didn’t offer up anything resembling a suggestion as to what would.  

Needless to say, we’ll return to this in the next class.  Thanks, oso!

However, something that did come up that hasn’t been mentioned is that of the “coyotes”—smugglers—that for an exorbitant will rate take ignorant would-be illegals across the river and set them free to be caught by the border patrol, not knowing that the Rio Grande is not the US/México border in all parts of the Republic.  (I think the term is used for any smugglers, although my student used it to refer to only those who practiced this kind of abuse).  

Also, from this May’s Harper’s Index (yeah, I’m reading back issues—the mail doesn’t work here).  “Average number of Mexicans that have died each year since 2000 trying to cross to the United States: 407.”  One wonders what those deaths must have been like.  Suffocation?  Starvation?  Crushed while hiding among cargo?  You can imagine there must be incidents that nobody knows about also.  The idea of those hidden gold-paved streets still weighs heavy in peoples’ minds apparently.  Eldorado, USA—here we come!  (Maybe inspired reading of Candide is what is driving everyone northward).  

Either way, I think eliminating border controls would mitigate these problems. 

And speaking of China, perhaps the Chinese tunnels in Mexicali would be a safer route (check out &quot;They Came Out Like Ants!&quot; in the October 2004 issue of Harper&#039;s).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Oso, </p>
<p>One of my recent classes was devoted to this issue though remarkably, in the hour and a half or so we spent discussing, the question of “what would happen if the border were to be erased?” didn’t come up.  (Or rather it didn’t occur to me to ask).  Instead we went in circles about the current effect of immigration—legal and illegal—on the people of the US, Mexico, and other countries making these journeys as well as the people in the receiving countries.  (For example, what effect does having a chino-headed gringo come teach in México have on its people/culture?  The economy?  Or of China, for that matter).  The point is, our hackneyed platica didn’t really get us anywhere.  We merely agreed that it wasn’t really working out right now, but didn’t offer up anything resembling a suggestion as to what would.  </p>
<p>Needless to say, we’ll return to this in the next class.  Thanks, oso!</p>
<p>However, something that did come up that hasn’t been mentioned is that of the “coyotes”—smugglers—that for an exorbitant will rate take ignorant would-be illegals across the river and set them free to be caught by the border patrol, not knowing that the Rio Grande is not the US/México border in all parts of the Republic.  (I think the term is used for any smugglers, although my student used it to refer to only those who practiced this kind of abuse).  </p>
<p>Also, from this May’s Harper’s Index (yeah, I’m reading back issues—the mail doesn’t work here).  “Average number of Mexicans that have died each year since 2000 trying to cross to the United States: 407.”  One wonders what those deaths must have been like.  Suffocation?  Starvation?  Crushed while hiding among cargo?  You can imagine there must be incidents that nobody knows about also.  The idea of those hidden gold-paved streets still weighs heavy in peoples’ minds apparently.  Eldorado, USA—here we come!  (Maybe inspired reading of Candide is what is driving everyone northward).  </p>
<p>Either way, I think eliminating border controls would mitigate these problems. </p>
<p>And speaking of China, perhaps the Chinese tunnels in Mexicali would be a safer route (check out &#8220;They Came Out Like Ants!&#8221; in the October 2004 issue of Harper&#8217;s).</p>
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		<title>By: xoloitzquintle</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/comment-page-1/#comment-48702</link>
		<dc:creator>xoloitzquintle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=692#comment-48702</guid>
		<description>Sassy,
Ask most northern European about Italians, Greeks, and Spanish and you will get dumb, lazy, maybe passionate (hence dangerous).  Probably not desparate, but in the &#039;50s through the &#039;70s you would hear the same rhetoric.  

Turks have been migrating to Germany since the 50&#039;s, yet they are still a marginalized community.  Moreover, Turkey has been trying to join the EU for quite some time, yet the Eastern 10 come along and jump ahead of them.  Yes, there are stereotypes, even within Germany - where they are supposed to be &quot;ein Volk&quot;: ossies vs. wessies.  However, they are still included within the EU.  The fear in Europe is about Islam (which = terrorism, but not only).  And in the minds of Europeans immigration = Islam.

With Mexicans, and Latinos, it is different.  It is about the browning of America.  About the dilution of the &quot;fundemental values&quot; upon which the country was founded.  About the loss of &quot;our&quot; language.  And about the &quot;stealing&quot; of our social services.  In the US immigration = illegal immigration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sassy,<br />
Ask most northern European about Italians, Greeks, and Spanish and you will get dumb, lazy, maybe passionate (hence dangerous).  Probably not desparate, but in the &#8217;50s through the &#8217;70s you would hear the same rhetoric.  </p>
<p>Turks have been migrating to Germany since the 50&#8242;s, yet they are still a marginalized community.  Moreover, Turkey has been trying to join the EU for quite some time, yet the Eastern 10 come along and jump ahead of them.  Yes, there are stereotypes, even within Germany &#8211; where they are supposed to be &#8220;ein Volk&#8221;: ossies vs. wessies.  However, they are still included within the EU.  The fear in Europe is about Islam (which = terrorism, but not only).  And in the minds of Europeans immigration = Islam.</p>
<p>With Mexicans, and Latinos, it is different.  It is about the browning of America.  About the dilution of the &#8220;fundemental values&#8221; upon which the country was founded.  About the loss of &#8220;our&#8221; language.  And about the &#8220;stealing&#8221; of our social services.  In the US immigration = illegal immigration.</p>
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		<title>By: Sassy</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/comment-page-1/#comment-48697</link>
		<dc:creator>Sassy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=692#comment-48697</guid>
		<description>My point is that there is a huge influx of Turks, Algerians, and other mediterranean immigrants into Northern Erurope and the Europeans are freaking out about it, similar to the way Americans are freaking out about illegal immigration.  This didn&#039;t happen with the Greeks and Armenians.

Living in SoCal we have a unique kinship with Mexico... the cultures meld.  But where I grew up, in Long Island NY, &quot;Mexican&quot; is a term to describe any latino... and the influx of southern / central Mexicans into the northeast is not taken lightly.  As an example - while nearly the entire South Bronx (an area almost the size of San Diego) is Puerto Rican &amp; Dominican.. .there is only one, small Mexican barrio in Sunset Heights Brooklyn, an area of about 20 square blocks.  While the South Bronx is a hell-pit of street crime and gangs, Sunset Park is thriving and alive with hardworking people.   Yet many in the established Latino communities view the Mexicans as &#039;poor outsiders coming to take our jobs&#039;.

As for the EU vs Turkey...  I agree that it&#039;s about Islam, but I think it is also socioeconomic - many northern europeans cast the same suspect eye on the Bulgarians, Hungarians, Latvians, etc... as being poor, dumb, lazy, and desperate... an ignorant sentiment echoed (privately) by my neighbors in the Northeast, who have finally accepted Puerto Ricans after nearly 30 years, but now feel threatened by Mexicans, who are an oder of magnitude &#039;poorer&#039; than the established Latinos.  Provincialism has always been a part of Old Europe and I think a lot of that sentiment lives on, especially in &#039;Old New York&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point is that there is a huge influx of Turks, Algerians, and other mediterranean immigrants into Northern Erurope and the Europeans are freaking out about it, similar to the way Americans are freaking out about illegal immigration.  This didn&#8217;t happen with the Greeks and Armenians.</p>
<p>Living in SoCal we have a unique kinship with Mexico&#8230; the cultures meld.  But where I grew up, in Long Island NY, &#8220;Mexican&#8221; is a term to describe any latino&#8230; and the influx of southern / central Mexicans into the northeast is not taken lightly.  As an example &#8211; while nearly the entire South Bronx (an area almost the size of San Diego) is Puerto Rican &amp; Dominican.. .there is only one, small Mexican barrio in Sunset Heights Brooklyn, an area of about 20 square blocks.  While the South Bronx is a hell-pit of street crime and gangs, Sunset Park is thriving and alive with hardworking people.   Yet many in the established Latino communities view the Mexicans as &#8216;poor outsiders coming to take our jobs&#8217;.</p>
<p>As for the EU vs Turkey&#8230;  I agree that it&#8217;s about Islam, but I think it is also socioeconomic &#8211; many northern europeans cast the same suspect eye on the Bulgarians, Hungarians, Latvians, etc&#8230; as being poor, dumb, lazy, and desperate&#8230; an ignorant sentiment echoed (privately) by my neighbors in the Northeast, who have finally accepted Puerto Ricans after nearly 30 years, but now feel threatened by Mexicans, who are an oder of magnitude &#8216;poorer&#8217; than the established Latinos.  Provincialism has always been a part of Old Europe and I think a lot of that sentiment lives on, especially in &#8216;Old New York&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: HispanicPundit</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/comment-page-1/#comment-48682</link>
		<dc:creator>HispanicPundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=692#comment-48682</guid>
		<description>That damn RINO!!! On second thought now, he probably did &lt;em&gt;intentionally &lt;/em&gt;try to buy off votes!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That damn RINO!!! On second thought now, he probably did <em>intentionally </em>try to buy off votes!!!</p>
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		<title>By: xoloitzquintle</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/comment-page-1/#comment-48671</link>
		<dc:creator>xoloitzquintle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=692#comment-48671</guid>
		<description>I have to disagree with Sassy.

First, if you look at the rhetoric from 1980 and 1985 regarding the admission of Greece, Portugal, and Spain, it was very alarmist.  Yes, that rhetoric is gone.  So much that much less fuss was made about the admission of the Eastern European countries last year.  

There is free movement of people and labor in Europe.  Of course there is bureaucracy that must be dealt with - as is always the case.  Even in the US, you cannot move from one state to another and immediately start using the state services.

Last the parallel between Mexico and Turkey is a poor one.  Whether Europeans admit it or not, the biggest reason people object to the admission of Turkey into the EU is that it is a Muslim country.  There is a growing unease about the growth of Islam in Europe, so much that the Catholic Church pushed very hard for a clause stating the Christian roots of Europe.  While I have heard all sorts of rhetoric against Mexicans (and other Latinos), their Catholicism has never been a reason for keeping them out (ok, there are a few Aryan wackos that might bring it up).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to disagree with Sassy.</p>
<p>First, if you look at the rhetoric from 1980 and 1985 regarding the admission of Greece, Portugal, and Spain, it was very alarmist.  Yes, that rhetoric is gone.  So much that much less fuss was made about the admission of the Eastern European countries last year.  </p>
<p>There is free movement of people and labor in Europe.  Of course there is bureaucracy that must be dealt with &#8211; as is always the case.  Even in the US, you cannot move from one state to another and immediately start using the state services.</p>
<p>Last the parallel between Mexico and Turkey is a poor one.  Whether Europeans admit it or not, the biggest reason people object to the admission of Turkey into the EU is that it is a Muslim country.  There is a growing unease about the growth of Islam in Europe, so much that the Catholic Church pushed very hard for a clause stating the Christian roots of Europe.  While I have heard all sorts of rhetoric against Mexicans (and other Latinos), their Catholicism has never been a reason for keeping them out (ok, there are a few Aryan wackos that might bring it up).</p>
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		<title>By: Sassy</title>
		<link>http://el-oso.net/blog/archives/2005/08/25/sorrow-drips-into-your-heart-through-a-pinhole/comment-page-1/#comment-48670</link>
		<dc:creator>Sassy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://el-oso.net/blog/?p=692#comment-48670</guid>
		<description>Even though EU countries allow unfettered movement it&#039;s all tightly regulated... you can&#039;t just come into the country and start using it&#039;s services.

Also, talk to any German or Englishman about the proposed admission of Turkey to the EU and watch their response.  Mexico is more akin to Turkey, Bulgaria, Latvia etc.. in the EU than Spain/ Portugal etc..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even though EU countries allow unfettered movement it&#8217;s all tightly regulated&#8230; you can&#8217;t just come into the country and start using it&#8217;s services.</p>
<p>Also, talk to any German or Englishman about the proposed admission of Turkey to the EU and watch their response.  Mexico is more akin to Turkey, Bulgaria, Latvia etc.. in the EU than Spain/ Portugal etc..</p>
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