Posted 3 years, 4 months ago in the early afternoon by oso
‘In order for the world to be transformed into a new mould it is necessary that human beings themselves shall psychically turn on to another path. Until you really make yourself a brother to tall, brotherhood will not arrive. Niver, prompted by science or self-interest alone, will human beings be able to share their property and their privileges in harmless fasion. None will consider that he has enough, and all will grumble, envying and destroying one another. You ask when what I describe will come true. It will come true, but first there must be a period of human solitariness.’
‘What kind of solitariness do you mean?’ I asked him.
‘The kind that reigns in everywhere now, particularly in our own time, though it has not yet established itself universally, and its hour has not yet come. For in our era all are isolated into individuals, each retires solitary within his burrow, each withdraws from the other, conceals himself and that which he possesses. He amasses wealth in solitariness, thinking: how strong I am now and how secure, yet he does not know, the witless one, that the more he amasses, the further he will sink into suicidal impotence. For he has become accustomed to relying upon himself alone and has isolated himself from the whole as an individual, has trained his soul not to trust in help from others, in human beings and mankind, and is fearful only of losing his money and the privileges he has acquired. In every place today the human mind is mockingly starting to lose its awereness of the fact that a person’s true security consists not in his own personal, solitary effort, but in the common integrity of human kind.
Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov
The last time I read El Norte, I suppose I was somewhat suprised to skim over a graph that listed Mexico as the 10th wealthiest nation in the world; well ahead of most European countries. But not that surprised. The problem is, we’re accustomed to measuring wealth by metrics like minimum wage ($4 a day in Mexico, $7 an hour in California) and property value., But, if you were to measure something like purchase of $40,000+ cars per capita, I bet you’d be surprised. In fact, per capita, I’d be willing to bet that Mexico would “win out.”
I am writing this installment of the series from San Diego. Taking the trolley from Tijuana to Old Town San Diego a few days ago, an important realization struck me regarding the difference between the U.S. and Mexico. Both countries have their multi-million dollar corporate headquarters, sprawling private universities, fenced off estates and costly country clubs. And they both have their homelessness and poverty - rural and metropolitan. And against popular myth, both countries even have a sizable middle class.
What struck me as the real reason we continue to call the U.S. and Western Europe “first world” and Mexico “third world” is the night and day difference in government infrastructure.
There I was sitting on comfortable and dependable public transportation with the rest of my fellow San Diegans, rich and poor. Looking out the windows, I saw well constructed, safe, and maintained highways, freeways, and roads. Decently planned nieghborhoods with well-constructed houses that meet municipal housing standards. We passed government maintained public spaces: parks, train stations, community centers, theaters, and museums. (Monterrey’s most well known museum is privately owned.)
Mexicans would never - and with good reason - trust their government to … well, govern … so many programs and projects.
During the long haul from the Otay Mesa border crossing to Old Town - listening to Nightmares on Wax on the iPod - it dawned on me for the first time that, though we have a well-deserved reputation for extreme individualism, American culture is (was?) very much about entrusting our government institutions to provide us with the shared facilities, comforts, and programs we desire.
Before getting to know HP and reading many more conservative blogs, I was naive enough to think that the only difference between liberals and conservatives was simply that liberals are compassionate adn giving while conservatives are greedy and stingy. It is true that there are plenty of greedy, individualistic, secular conservatives. And I don’t mean greedy in a derogatory sense, bur rather, as Peter puts it, simply self-interest.
But the more (and more objectively) I read, the more I’ve come to understand that the greater difference is one of God. Actually, that’s poorly put. Let me try to explain myself. Like Dostoyevsky wrote 125 years ago, we all desire a sense of community. It’s one of the reasons we keep revisiting each other’s blogs. Most liberals want a democratically elected and transparent government to help promote that sense of community. Public parks, public universities, government funded art projects, grants, museums: we consider these good things.
Most conservatives also want a sense of community, but they want it to take place outside the government. It would be an interesting survey, but I am pretty sure that most conservatives (worldwide) seek a sense of community in their church or religious community. Or at their country club or athletic club.
The difference is a cultural one, but more and more, it seems like it always is.
Maybe this post seems a bit tangential in the context of the series, but I think it’ll tie in later on. The next post will be about my reflections while traveling in Cuba and then - if the State Department doesn’t come after me - my thoughts on the open source movement.
I left some code out last night. Sorry if you had wanted to leave a comment.
Yet Mexico has a national health care system and the US doesn’t.
What strikes me the most when I go to Mexico are the disparities of wealth. I would be interested in seeing what the Gini coefficient (measures the disparity of wealth) for Mexico is now and how it has changed over the past twenty years. Maybe next time I am in the library I can look that up. While I am there I might look up the US and its historical progression as well.
It is always interesting to hear people’s impressions as they move back and forth across “La Frontera”. Thanks for sharing.
I love this series you started. It’s amazing to see these thoughts, tangenital or not, weave and connect. I’m glad to know that somehow I helped in this. However, I don’t take credit for the rest, it’s all you. Awesome.
As humans we all do seek a sense of community. The private university I graduated from advocated several things: “community” and “social-service” or “social activism,” no matter who you are, I was taught to do only for the betterment of society and people. My alma mater is a private Catholic university and many people don’t consider it “Catholic” because it’s too “liberal” in it’s philosophies…but if I learned something important is that societies and people do thrive in a community where people are treated for who they are, without how much you earn or what you have, or who you sleep with, etc.
You’d probably agree that’s difficult to accomplish, that is in a more grandiose scale like running a country that way. Funny, how I read HP’s blog and I read yours and you guys are on opposite corners and I think to myself, “Where do I stand?”
Although, I’m not overtly politically-minded, I tend to shy away from my opinions, yet you can only t do that for so long before you have to stand ground on certain issues.
I look forward to more.
The strangest thing I have heard a Mexicano in Mexico say is that they wish that Mexico was taken over by the U.S. so that the country could be run as efficiently as El Norte. I didn’t know how to respond to that. It’s like it was a sign of the apocalypse.
Hey Oso,
Before getting to know HP and reading many more conservative blogs, I was naive enough to think that the only difference between liberals and conservatives was simply that liberals are compassionate adn giving while conservatives are greedy and stingy.
Ya ves!!! I hope you learned something, now you accurately know us conservatives are really just a bunch of non-webpage savy, ESL recovering, Mexicans who are greedy and stingy, and have a big…SMILE!!!
Btw, I like this post, while I would have worded many things differently than you (instead of ‘greedy’ and ’stingy’, I would have used Adam Smith’s language, and instead of community, I would have used distrust of government), for the most part, its pretty accurate.
As far as comparing Mexico to the United States, while I agree with a lot of what you say, my personal preference in comparing one country to another is in the poor. In other words, I can care less about comparing rich to rich, or middle class to middle class, or even the income inequality between the rich and the poor, the first thing I always look at is how the poor in one country are compared to the poor in another country. Yet when you do that, you can see the vast economic difference between the USA and Mexico. To be poor in a (extreme) capitalist country like the USA is very different than being poor somewhere else. For example, the USA’s poor have an obesity problem, whereas Mexico’s poor, especially in parts of Mexico where my family is from (Guerrero), have a ‘no food’ problem. I joke around with my dad sometimes about how I grew up in Compton, and he grew up in the Compton of Mexico (Guerrero is known for high poverty, even by Mexico standards). But the fact of the matter is, if I was fair in my comparison, compared to where my dad grew up, Compton (arguably one of the poorest areas in the United States) is closer to Beverly Hills than it is to real poverty like my dad witnessed. You may disagree, but all the immigrants fleeing from Mexico to the United States, with many of them landing in Compton/Watts and South Central, seems to prove my point.
As far as community goes, you bring up a very good point. Some economists think that all people, not just liberals, tend to view the world through community eyes. For example, economist Arnold Kling writes,
I’m really looking forward to your next editions of this, because frankly amigo, I don’t know how long you can survive if you keep helping your friends with their websites yet refusing to allow them to pay you for it (like you do mine). If you keep that up, you’ll be 30 and still riding that bike of yours!!!
But you’ll certainly have a lot of friends!!! Maybe that is where you’re taking this…
“Most conservatives also want a sense of community, but they want it to take place outside the government”
*gasp* does that mean that all this time i have been a conservative and just didn’t know it….
but seriously, the last time i went to mexico it was extremely depressing to see the extremes in poverty and wealth. it was not my first time there but it was the first time that i truly took note of it. i’m not sure if its because i was older but it was too overwhelming for me. it made me realize how much i take for granted.
What I find really twisted is how much San Diego, which is a border- town, has changed. And yet, whenever I visit my famill back in Tijuas’, well it still feels the same as it did when I was little. Dusty. smelly and wonderful. I don’t regonize my little town of Chula Vista, where the well off are moving the Mezzcans back to Mexico with the property value increases. And I thought New York was expensive, at least I don’t have to pay for gas.
Xolo,
I contemplated mentioning that. They’ve also got a gigantic federal network dedicated to family development … something that would never have a chance in the U.S. Both DIF and IMSS, however, are badly underfunded and it is not great secret that if you are middle-class in Mexico - just like public education - you use neither.
EMC,
I am a fan of the well-informed, but “taking a stand” means much less to me than someone who listens to all sides, which you obviously do. Being argumentative or not is mostly part of someone’s personality … HP’s obviously got plenty of it and I’ve got some in my back pocket as well. Just ask my girlfriend. Righteousness though always ends up causing more problems than it sets out to “fix”.
HP,
I apologize for not using Adam Smith’s language - I blame ESL. I know this is gonna get into a long discussion, but you bring up a very good point: why are the poor better off in the U.S. than Mexico?
Irasali,
I think a lot of Americans don’t realize how much poverty there is in our own country. HP is right: malnutrition amongst America’s poor is rare … and that’s largely (and sadly) because there is something called food stamps. I have traveled all throughout Mexico - through the wealthiest and most impoverished metropolitan and rural areas and I don’t think I’ve once seen what I witness on skid row in L.A. I’ve never been to Chicago, but from what I’ve read there are some not-too-well-off neighborhoods there as well.
Divafina,
$2.79 a gallon I saw today! Nice to see you check in.
Hey Oso,
Couple of comments. First, about the poor in the United States, even the skid row in LA….have you been there recently? I was there a few months ago (all the cheap stuff is in downtown LA), and if you see the bums, they are almost all fat, not skinny. The few that are skinny, are usually skinny because of drug addictions and so forth (that damn crack!!). On the other hand, poor people in other non-capitalistic countries, they are skinny by lack of food, has nothing to do with drugs. Again, this is why you don’t see our poor flocking to Mexico, yet you see Mexico’s, and several other countries for that matter, poor flocking and wishing they lived in the United States; even the skid row of LA if they could…
I know this is gonna get into a long discussion, but you bring up a very good point: why are the poor better off in the U.S. than Mexico?
That’s easy. Economic growth. It is the one economic goal that unites all conservatives, and the one economic goal that has a proven track record of reducing poverty.
The last (and only) time I actually was on skid row was a couple years ago, but just a few months ago I was close by near the greyhound station … yeah, great bargains.
I do understand your argument that GDP per capita in the US has risen much much faster than Mexico’s. Maybe, I should ask, why the poor in the Netherlands (which was below Mexico on the list or wealthiest nations) are better off than the poor in Mexico?
Yeah, the greyhound on Central Ave in LA, I’ve ridden on that mofo more than my fair share of times when I was younger. I used to always look forward to the drive down Central all the way from Compton (I lived near Central Ave, but in Compton) to LA, you could see all the different neighborhoods, and how the areas reflects those different neighborhoods.
I should ask, why the poor in the Netherlands (which was below Mexico on the list or wealthiest nations) are better off than the poor in Mexico?
Again, it has to do with economic growth. The Netherlands has a much higher Index of Economic Freedom than Mexico, so naturally, it’s poor will live better off (of course, it’s not just economic freedom that contributes to economic growth, but how long that economic freedom has been in effect, and other regional/geographical factors).
If you want to know THE difference between Republicans/Democrats, Liberals/Conservatives as far as economic policy goes, I would say this is it. Why are Republicans generally against higher taxes? They want higher economic growth. Why are Republicans generally against social programs? They want higher economic growth (hence, somewhat related to why they are against universal healthcare). Why are Republicans generally against environmental regulations? They want higher economic growth. Why are Republicans generally against unions? They want higher economic growth. Why are Republicans generally against ‘pro-labor’ laws? They want higher economic growth. Why are Republicans generally against regulations? They want higher economic growth….You get the idea.
An important thing to notice here is that this proves that Republicans are not ‘anti-poor’, or ‘anti-labor’, or ‘anti-minority’, or whatever other non-economic savy person accuses Republicans of being, it just means they believe in a philosophy that accomplishes the same thing everybody wants (reduced poverty, better standard of living, higher quality of life, etc), but through different means.
Those who put their ‘faith’ in economic growth, through economic efficiency, lean conservative, whereas those who put their ‘faith’ (and speaking as a conservative, I would say this requires greater faith than those who believe in economic growth) in social programs, or governmental actions, lean liberal. Simple as that (well, not exactly that simple, but nearly that simple).
Oso,
I am not sure the poor are better off in the USA then in Mexico. As Xolo noted Mexico as Universal health care, also in states like Oaxaca, Guerrero, and Chiaps the poor still have the ability work the land and eat it. Guerrero for example as three corn seasons in a year.
Also has Xolo noted it would be interesting to look at the Gini coeffiecent not just for the country but for Northern Mexico versus Southern Mexico.
I am not sure the poor are better off in the USA then in Mexico. As Xolo noted Mexico as Universal health care, also in states like Oaxaca, Guerrero, and Chiaps the poor still have the ability work the land and eat it. Guerrero for example as three corn seasons in a year.
If this is the case, than why do you think so many immigrants from Mexico leave family behind to risk life and death to come to a country where they don’t speak the language, are seen as outcasts, and have to survive in hiding? If it’s not because of the United States economic superiority to Mexico, than what? Or why don’t you see the reverse, in other words, why don’t you see the poor from the United States flocking to Mexico to work?
In fact, if you go to the worse areas of the United States, for example, places like Compton, Watts and South Central, you will find a very high concentration of immigrants. So not only are the immigrants leaving family behind, risking life and death, but they are doing this despite the fact that they will most likely live in the ghettos of the United States. So apparently, to them, being poor in the United States is overwhelmingly better than being poor in Mexico.
As far as Guerrero goes, my family is from a very small pueblo in Guerrero. My dad goes back at least twice a year, and spends sometimes up to a month there each time (he was just there a few weeks ago). Yet everytime he comes back he has some new story about how poverty is affecting the area, how hard people have to work just to eat, and constantly (ad nauseum) tells me about how people are experiencing real poverty there, stuff that doesn’t compare to anywhere in the United States. Granted, I’m not saying poor areas in Mexico are as poor as poor areas in Africa, but they are certainly not as rich as the ghettos of the United States.
Btw, I normally shy away from responding to people that are not directly addressing me, but since I haven’t seen elenamary in quite some time, I decided to make an exception and give her some special attention, to show her just how much I have missed her.
Yo I dropped this to Mario since he’s reading that now too… Thought of you yesterday at Trieste…they just opened a new location in Berkeley so I might have to check that out quite soon too. One of the most classic moments in my life was reading “Notes from the Underground” (mario & I, each with our own copy) at Cafe Trieste, excited, exchanging thoughts, confusions, grins. “What page are you on now?” “What did you think of this passage?” Gimme a ring man.
“wow, thank you. this shit is so on point for me right now. its where my
intellectual development is focused. I swear Dostoyevsky and I share some sort
of eternal unity or something. I felt the words as if they were being
formulated from my own mind. as if someone had secretly looked into the notes
in my mind. I know the words well, in other words but I haden’t read those
specific lines yet. but, for now, let the world move around me, I need to
focus on my self, as I have yet to to stop and do”
mario
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