Posted 3 years ago mid-morning by oso
It’s my lunch hour. Let’s see how quick we can do this.
People power rattling politics of Latin America
I have a feeling the Mexican media is doing a much better job covering the protests going on throughout this country and throughout Latin America than back home. It’s really pretty amazing to turn on the news every night and see a new, gigantic protests going on in this country and that, forcing out this leader, and that. In a way it feels like the 60’s: lots of noise, but not much actual participation.
I disagree with the article’s author, Danna Harman, that this is some sort of new political development in Latin America. If there’s one thing that Latin Americans know how to do it is protest and there is a long history of it. Maybe only France is ahead. Especially here in Mexico protests are common. A few weeks ago there was a protest by husbands being abused by their wives (it was on women’s day). All of April there has been a semi-continuous protest over gas prices. There are protests against TV stations, protests against neighbors, protests against what happens on telenovelas.
The problem is that the society divides into two halves - those who work for the government and those who work against it. But it only turns into a battle and rarely a solution and almost never participation. I agree with some of what Vinay Jawahar says:
“This is not constructive participation,” argues Vinay Jawahar at the Inter-American Dialogue in Washington. “It is hard to argue that this sort of instability is good for a country.” Mr. Jawahar calls the argument that people have no other recourse “opportunistic.” “The idea that as soon as people are unhappy with the performance of a president they can remove him means that legitimacy begins to rely on popularity, and it is dangerous when the two are confused.”
I certainly wouldn’t call it opportunistic, but there is a lack of accessibility and a lack of understanding in how to affect political change. Here in Mexico it’s so much easier to protest than it is to get involved, to find where the power lies and take ahold of it. There’s no understanding of the institutions and how they work (much like the IMF or World Bank) so people protest instead of try to reform. (Elenita: thoughts?)
The Strange Pleasure of Upgrading Software
I like Verlyn Klinkenborg - the guy writes about everything from why people are leaving Iowa to tidal pools in Belize to upgrading his software. If you read blogs, it’s hard not to read about Apple’s newest release of their operating system OSX called Tiger. They write about it like a poet writing about sex or an art fanatic describing his favorite piece. Of course I’m jealous, but I’m also poor so until someone buys me a powerbook (I’d happily accept an iBook) I’m left in the dark with an operating system released about four years ago.
Bush Social Security Plan Would Cut Future Benefits
No surprise there. I actually have nothing against the idea of personal savings accounts. I say try it out some time. But definitely not now. It’s like trying to start a risky business venture when you’re hovering above bankruptcy.
‘Alcohol makes your brain grow’
I always wondered how Abogado got his smarts. My favorite quote:
“It is well known that alcohol in moderation is good for your body so it’s no surprise it’s also good for your mind. Maybe that is why lots of pub quiz teams are so bright.”
Debate stirs candidates
Cindy, why was “Jake Strom dressed in a chicken suit” and what the hell is the “Bruin Liberation Movement”?
Black leaders call for police officers to be disciplined after handcuffing 5-year-old girl
Yeah, that shit was ridiculous. My lady and I saw that on the news a few days ago and we were like whaa, are you joking? Do you guys think race plays into this? Do you think the cops woulda done the same thing if the girl was white?
Why I left the Catholic Church
I can’t thank Chris enough for introducing me to My American Experience. Canucks are so fucking great. Anyway, catholicism has been a major topic of conversation in our house and in my head. Last week my girlfriend decided she wanted to start going to mass again which was a decision very hard for me to accept. Is still hard for me to accept. But we’ve had some good and respectful talks come out of it.
Other interesting posts as of late about Catholicism:
The Coup in Chile. 1973
I know I already del.icio.us.ed this but it’s worth pointing out again. Marcelo Montecino’s photography from Chile during the coup of 1973 (the other 9/11) is incredible. All of his photography is incredible, but this series especially really captures something from a much more personal perspective than what you see in the usual social documentaries. I would love to one day mean Marcelo.
I’m still addicted to Flickr and love seeing my friends update their photos. It’s such a good way to keep in touch with people. Sometimes pictures really do say a lot more than words. I already feel like I sorta know Vidalia and Shimonkey even though the only way we’ve communicated is through comments. One thing that I can’t keep up with though is the invitation to groups. It feels nice to be invited to a group, just like it’s nice to be invited to a party, but it seems like people are going a little crazy in starting a group for this and a group for that. I think I already belong to something like 15 groups, but the only ones I understand are Monterrey and San Diego.
Well, lunch break over. This thing has gotta me full of typos and doo doos.
We like the breeze flow straight out of our lids
Them they got moved by these hard-rock Brooklyn kids
Us flow a rush when the DJ’s boomin classics
You dig the crew on the fattest hip hop records
He touch the kinks and sinks into the sounds
She frequents the fatter joints called undergrounds
Our funk zooms like you hit the Mary Jane
They flock to booms man boogie had to change
Who freaks the clips with mad amount percussion
Where kinky hair goes to unthought-of dimensions
Why’s it so fly cause hip hop kept some drama
When Butterfly rocked his light blue-suede Pumas
What by the cut we push it off the corner
How was the buzz entire hip hop era?
Was fresh and fat since they started sayin outie
Cause funks made fat from right beneath my hoodie
The puba of the styles like miles and shit
Like sixties funky worms with waves and perms
Just sendin chunky rhythms right down ya block
We be to rap what key be to lock
The Universal Myths: Heroes, Gods, Tricksters, and Others (Meridian)
Buenos Aires Tiene Historia: Once itinerarios guiados por la ciudad
Kafka on the Shore
The Genius of Language: Fifteen Writers Reflect on Their Mother Tongue
Three Cups of Tea: One Man’s Mission to Promote Peace . . . One School at a Time
The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin
Oso, the ad by Google says “Biblia del Oso” that is so weird.
I only have a little more knowledge about the Bruin Liberation Movement. Supposedly it’s students targeting the apathetic voters through humor, hence the chicken suit. I think you can find more here. I’m staying out of undergrad politics because it already looks bad against me that I have that experience when running for the Grad Students Association.
I’m not too concerned with that election, because there is drama with the grad student elections.
About those protests, I remember reading something in the LA Times about how crazy the protesting was getting in Mexico City. It was just the fact that there were so many protests and lots would get in the way of citizens going about their daily lives.
Whoa, awesome post. Lots of thoughts don’t even know where to begin. In my opinion most Latin American countries do cover protesting much better than American media does. American media doesn’t show you what happens out there–the Internet (IndyMedia) does.
I drank too much the other night and all I got was a lousy hang over. I don’t know about elevating your mind. But gotta love the Jack.
Handcuffing a child of any color is fucking wrong.
I’m Catholic. I’m religious, but I don’t go about making my non-Catholic friends into converts. I’m new to your blog so I don’t know much about your background. My girlfriend’s best friend is Catholic (she’s white) and her husband is hispanic and he’s Adventist. That itself is interesting to me. Religion (to many) is an important part of life the way writing, eating, and running is for me. I hope all goes well.
Oso, you seem like a huge bookworm. You ever heard of Daniel Alarcon?
I’ve been a Mac user since I was 18. I worked at as a web designer and used primarily Macs. In my opinion they are superior, but those fuckers are expensive. I got my little “manzanita” off of craigslist, brand new iBook, 40 gig iPod (that I broke and recently got fixed), and a three year warranty. I still work with PCs tho, at work.
Write on,
Cez
I’ve got a half-written entry in the waiting queue titled “Et super hanc petram”, which deals with my own post-elevation struggle with Catholicism. (Yes, I used to quite frequently to Latin mass, by my own choice.) We’ll see if it gets anywhere.
And re: protest versus participation; I’ll give it some thought. I ‘m planning to install Tiger on Sunday (t-storms are predicted here tonight and tomorrow, and I refuse to stand in line in front of the Apple Store tonight and make myself sick again), so hopefully I’ll manage to develop some coherent thoughts about it before Spotlight and Dashboard eat my brain cycles.
And one more thing: if you’re looking for new reading material, check out Herni Bernard-Levy’s new series in the Atlantic Monthly. It seems the sort of thing that would appeal to you.
Nice photo link on Chile’s tragic confluence of evils.
I’m on a late lunch, and since it’s Friday, it’s a bit longer than usual…so get ready…
About Mexico Protests
I’ve been learning more and more about why so many are passionately in favor of Obrador, and from the limited conversations I have had, it seems to be more of their hope and support for him cracking down on corruption and thievery in the government than on any of his economic policies. Everybody agrees that one of Mexicos biggest problems is corruption in government, both economists and the Mexican citizens know this, and the hope is that Obrador has the balls to point fingers, and get people who long deserve to be arrested imprisoned. Maybe he will be able to do that, maybe he wouldn’t. If he does bring people to justice, those will certainly be great things to his credit.
Bush’s Social Security
All the details of Bush’s social security plan isn’t completely hashed out. There are several positives/negatives about his plan that are certainly debatable, but we won’t know all the details until we see the final plan.
About the Catholic Church And Liberal/Conservative differences
There certainly are legitimate points of disagreement with the Catholic Church, for an institution that is so old, so broad, and so outspoken, it shouldn’t be hard to find legitimate points of disagreement (I certainly have mine). But the ones this author gave are (IMHO) extremely weak. He basically breaks it down to two, the role of women and the priest sex abuse scandal.
As far as the priest sex abuse scandal goes, I think it was St. Augustine who said that you don’t judge a religion by the members that disobey the religious orders but by the members that obey the religious orders.
Why doesn’t this person mention Mother Theresa and her work around the world? Or her order, Missionaries of Charity, that are doing work in the poorest areas of the world? Why not mention all the other orders of men and women, Franciscans, Benedictines, Dominicans, Augustinians, Carmelites and even Jesuits around the world? Why not mention that the Catholic Church is only second to the United States government in charity around the world….
What the Catholic priests did in the sex abuse scandal was scandalous, nobody is denying that. But you don’t judge a religion by its fallen members, you judge her by her standing members.
As far as the second one, the role of women, although he doesn’t give any specific examples, I would be willing to bet that a good portion of his basis is the Churches resistance to allowing women to become priests.
And this charge, while made frequently, shows a very elementary understanding of the Churches teachings. While one can quibble on whether or not the bible allows for female priests, one thing all sides can agree on is that the historical records show only male priests. This has been the case even when the historical Church has had priest’s shortages and what not. So based on the historical record, and the way the Church forms doctrine, meaning ‘new’ doctrine has to have historical support, the Popes of the Church essentially have their hands tied on this. In other words, even if they *wanted* to allow female priests, they are forbidden, by the fundamental tenants of the Church. To say the Church is unfair in overturning this is about as fair as when scientists say she is unfair in refusing to overturn her belief that Mary was immaculately conceived. To do so would be to deny centuries of Tradition.
Now, with that said, to say that it is inherently discriminating to women to refuse to allow them to be priests, would be about as fair as a man shouting to God that he is sexist because he only allowed women to bear children. It’s just the way things are, there is no fair/unfair about it.
Now, before I close on the whole women thing, I wanted to leave with a quote from Mary Ann Glendon, Professor of Law at Harvard University. She writes,
But let’s get to the heart of the matter here, Oso. Had you disagreed with the Catholic Church on scientific, or even archeological grounds, I wouldn’t have said anything, but let’s be honest, your disagreement, and I would say liberals in general, disagreements with the Church is primarily philosophical, not scientific. YOu and me, liberals and conservatives, see the Catholic Church from two completely different starting points, and so naturally, we will arrive at two very different ending points. When the Catholic Church argues against abortion, you/liberals see the oppression of women; I/conservatives see her standing up for the defenseless while at the same time shielding women from the emotional harm that will come from abortion. When the Church speaks up against gay marriage, you see her oppressing homosexuals; we see her standing up for marriage. etc…etc.. In other words, as I said in my discussion with Moreno, by following your liberal beliefs to their logical conclusions you can’t help but dislike the Church. And I, by following my conservative beliefs to its logical conclusions, I can’t help but like the Church, it is a natural flow of our different starting points.
But more importantly, it is her philosophy that has the strongest influence in my Mexican brothers and sisters’ heritage. So in essence, you are not just attacking the Catholic Church here, but my Tradition. I know I seem to be a Catholic defender as of late, but I only do that because the Catholic Church is such an important part of my heritage. In other words, it is born out of a love (and some say glorification) of my Mexican heritage that draws me to respect and admire the Catholic Church. She is as much a part of my history and Traditions as dichos and healing practices that go as far back as the Aztecs are. Which leads me to another point I have been wanting to make for some time now…
You say,
Last week my girlfriend decided she wanted to start going to mass again which was a decision very hard for me to accept. Is still hard for me to accept. But we’ve had some good and respectful talks come out of it.
And so begins the tug of war that all of my liberal Mexican brothers and sisters must go through. I’ve seen it time and time again. Follow a Mexican who completely grew up in the Mexican culture through her/his path towards liberalism and you will see a tug against their Traditions. The Mexican will have to choose, will they pick the teachings their parents passed on to them, or will s/he abandon those to follow the liberal philosophy, because one thing is clear, both can’t live in complete harmony. One eventually has to win out. I’ve made my choice, and I stand with my Catholic Mexican heritage.
I bring this up to my liberal Mexican friends who try to imply that I am a traitor to my people by becoming conservative. I say, is that so, how about we bring a white liberal to our next carne asada. Have them sit at the table while our tias serve them food, while all the men hang out together and all the women hang out together, while my tias stay home and take care of the kids and my tios are out there busting there asses off working. Or take them to the jobs my tios work at, while my tios are cutting grass or working in the fields, while my dad is working at junk yards, working for his children at home.
I than ask them, what do you think would be running through that liberals mind? They know it, but generally won’t say it. Liberals, especially those abortion-at-any-time-during-pregnancy ‘feminists’, will suddenly abandon their cultural relativist views and see my tias as slaves, as ‘traitors to women everywhere’, will see my tios and dad as sexists, and will start to view our ‘peasant’ families as, ‘backward’ thinkers who are too stupid to run their own lives and in need of liberal elites to ‘enlighten’ and care for them. Conservatives, starting at radically different starting points, will have quite a different view.
And it seems that you and your gf may be coming to that same point where the tugs will be in different directions. I’m rooting for your gf on this one, as I am sure all your liberal buddies are rooting for you on this one.
Good god man. Some really good points here. And some beautiful xhtml formatting … I’m so proud. Just because of that good code, I’ll write out a thoughtful response soon. There’s a lot of misunderstanding about the catholicism thing that I want to clear up. (there are no sides and no rooting) But I think you’re very right about tradition. Did you read Daily Texican’s post - Kung Fu Catholics?
Yep, and you can call me Sing.
To snipe a point:
I don’t think that is what people are doing. Most people I know take issue with the way the church handled it, not that the abuses happened. The church should not be an accomplice to crimes.
How the Church handled it, and the priests that did it…same difference, scandalous.
shame on you for not having a mac. i shocked. flumoxed. we should start a fundraiser!
The thunderstorm stood me up. I’m very pissed off indeed.
HispanicPundit’s comment deserves its own careful analysis and discussion, so I’m going to table my reactions for now (and maybe see if I can’t work them into an entry for my poor, stalled blog). In the meantime…
Honestly, I’m not sure that I can give you a comment about protest versus participation–at least not specifically pertaining to Mexico–of any distinguished caliber. My knowledge of modern Mexican history is wider than it is deep, and I don’t claim to know much about the actual political culture. I can make educated guesses, but there’s nothing to suggest that I won’t be completely wrong. (If so, feel free to point and mock.)
Bottom line: All these qualifies and modifiers basically mean I can’t offer anything but generalities. Sorry about that.
Anyway… it seems to me that protest is the most easily understood, the most universal form of political action that there is. I would argue in a world where people live under very different types and means of governance, all in various states of (un-)freedom, protest is the one that requires the least translation, acts as the least common denominator. Even in countries and cultures where the instances of criticizing authority is rare, I think people understand there are when things get so bad that you just need to take to the streets and have to fight back. It’s probably also the most accessible; totally illiterate people who have never heard the words “Bill of Rights” or “Constitution” or “ballot” can join a demonstration, but explaining how laws are passed and executed take a hell of a lot more work and require a lot more background knowledge.
Considering how undemocratic Mexico’s history has been, it makes sense to me that there would be a political culture of protest. The way I see it, it’s not just that protest is easier than real reform (i.e., affecting constructive political change); it’s also because, historically, that’s pretty much the only way popular change happened. Sure, Mexico is no longer under a one-party system and the PAN isn’t the “kept woman” anymore, but it seems unrealistic that the political culture would change accordingly en masse in just five years.
If you want, consider it a case of political culture lag. There’s more to it than that, of course, but I think that’s a huge part of it. You can’t expect people to behave as agents of democratic change when democracy itself has yet to fully take root in the political consciousness.
Now, I have some more thoughts related to this subject, but it’s very late for me, and the words are becoming very muddled in my head, and I think I’m going to head to bed. Sorry for not being more succinct.
Damn, I feel bad now. Re-reading what I wrote, I see that it came off rather harshly. I was in a bad mood, some test equipment issue at work that didn’t allow me to finish what I wanted to finish up for the week. So I used my response to vent a bit…
With that said, I really need to back away from discussions involving the Catholic Church. I certainly don’t want to give the impression that I am a good upstanding Catholic. God knows I am not. I was defending her primarily on Mexican heritage and conservative grounds, but it probably didn’t come across that way.
So with that said, I will let you have the last word on this topic, and consider me out of future Catholic discussions.
I already installed Tiger, LERO LERO!
But really, who doesn’t?
Where do I sign up?
Damn … so many thoughts, so many comments I’d like to make, but la suegra is in town (fun, fun) so it’s gonna have to wait until Monday.
Elenita,
What I was really asking you is what you thought about the inaccessibility of institutions like the IMF and World Bank and how there needs to be greater transparency for people to get involved instead of just protest. I guess I was trying to coax you into spilling the beans on the project of yours you told me about ’cause I think it’s a fantastic idea.
Wish me luck y’all. Sympathy is very much accepted.
Hugs, kisses, and a big bottle of painkillers are right here should you need them.
And, as to the project: I need to have something concrete to actually spill the beans about. Right now, I’ve got nothing but an idea and a vague plan, and those aren’t worth much save inside my head. But feel free to spread the word if you want.
Holy fuck HP! Damn you’ve got some crazy shit going on here Oso!
Well, as it turns out, the girlfriend’s mom and sister will be staying the night which means I’m allowed my couple hours of wi-fi and caffeine while they’re at mass.
Cindylu,
I have to admit, I find the Bear Bible a little suspicious as well. I hope King James doesn’t get jelous.
Cez,
So much good stuff is happening on your blog right now. I’m heading right over. (You ever check out Indymedia Mexico?)
Elenita,
Seriously, the state of Monterrey’s public libraries almost makes me cry. I hadn’t realized until coming here what a priviledge it was to be able to walk to my neighborhood library in San Diego and read through (nearly) whatever magazine I wanted to. I might be able to buy Atlantic Monthly in the downtown Sanborne’s for about $20, but I doubt even they have it.
You make some really good points about democratic development and culture lag here in Mexico. I’d like to write a post in Spanish about just that and see how the bloggers here in Monterrey react to it.
As always, I cannot wait for any of the posts you threaten us with. (and I still don’t understand the hostility towards WordPress - even Elenamary is making the switch - I don’t have a Mac ’cause I can’t afford it, but WP is free.)
HP,
I absolutely agree with you. Which is why many people who voted for the very conservative Fox were/are set to vote for Obrador. This probably isn’t what you’d expect for me to say, but Mexico needs someone fiercly independent and fiercy populist to come in and clean things up. Fox is way too diplomatic. He tries to appease everyone when what he really needs to do is throw people out and clean up the corruption. He’s lacking the huevos. Obrador has them which is why he’s both so popular and also so dangerous to anyone who has a stake in the corrupt machine that’s been driving this country forever.
I know you don’t want to talk about catholicism on the blog anymore and I respect that. Equally, I don’t want to get into my private relationship with my girlfriend and I don’t think I can separate the two. So what follows is gonna be at arm’s length.
I agree. This is one of my big problems with how easily people in other countries fall into anti-Americanism. As a white male from America, when I travel, I’m often judged also by “fallen members.” The problem is one of ignorance. And maybe I’m ignorant too.
But I have yet to encounter a catholic (have never met Mother Theresa) who doesn’t espouse one way of living and then live a lifestyle completely different. Of all religions that I am familiar with (I have spent a good amount of time studying all religions including five years of Catholic school and a semester studying Hinduism and Buddhism in Nepal), Catholics practice what they preach the very least.
Nor do I understand why anyone would want a patriarchal, beaureucratic institution managing their relationship with Jesus Christ or God.
Either way, I am going to start going to Mass (as an observer) with Laura to try and get a better understanding of the religion/institution.
Is this a good way to create new doctrines?
As far as Mary Ann Glendon goes … from my very limited knowledge of Catholic history, I could only assume that women have made progress in spite of rather than because of the Catholic church. When I start going to mass, if I hear the father encouraging women to be financially independent and start their own businesses, I’ll be very surprised and might have to reconsider.
Now, as far as your liberal vs. conservative argument, you’re right my problem is a philosophical one. There’s no way I’m going to waste my time proving that you can’t fit two animals of every species on a boat. But it’s incredible (and sad) how you put a complex argument into such a simplistic rubric.
I’m not against the church because they’re against abortions. Nor that they’re against gay marriage.
My problem is that they discourage people from thinking critically. Maybe the Jesuits are an exception, but most Catholic orders essentially tell you not to think about morality, but rather to obey. I have a very hard time ever supporting the discouragment of critical thinking whether it be socialist propoganda or religious dogma.
I think I’ll leave it at that. From a literary standpoint, those last four paragraphs were beautiful. I could totally feel you getting upset while you were writing. Same thing happens to me. And I agree with both you and Daily Texican that Catholicism is part of Mexican culture. Still, I can’t help but cringe whenever someone is called a sell out, whatever the reason. Liberal or conservative, rich or poor, dark or light, accent or no accent, enchiladas or hamburgers, Los Tigres del Norte or Eliot Smilth: your identity is what you make of it. Nothing more and nothing less.
Myke,
Agreed.
Abo,
I’m afraid we might not make the best research participants with all those “independent variables” still floating around in our bloodstream. (Did I just ruin your political aspirations?)
DT,
Thank you. Both for recognizing that the fuck is holy and for declaring it. Sometimes I feel like I’m the only one to write fuck and shit in comments.
I know I said I’d give you the last word, but I’ll interject since you seem to expect a response from me… But after this specific blog entry, no more (I’ll try, atleast) Catholic stuff for me.
…Catholics practice what they preach the very least.
To be blunt, I would say that this is primarily because of the political philosophy you follow. Liberal Catholics, especially the ones that have absorbed all the liberal philosophy, tend to be much more Kung Fu Catholics than, say conservative Catholics. The reason is simple, liberalism, especially as it is practiced, is fundamentally at odds with Catholic doctrine, so liberal Catholics will tend to water down their faith, and pick and choose what they like.
But go with me to a pro-life conference, where you will meet people who not only believe what the Catholic Church teaches, but practice it. They will spend time, money, and vasts amount of effort in doing exactly what the Church teaches. Or talk to Mexicans that you know that did grow up in devout Catholic families, and ask them about their parents. For every Mexican Catholic family that has hypocritical parents, I can give you 10 devout Catholic families that follow the Churches teachings.
Another thing you have to factor in here, is that the Church is the largest religion on earth. So you can’t go by absolute numbers, you have to be able to seperate those who are Catholic by upbringing and those who are Catholic by choice.
Nor do I understand why anyone would want a patriarchal, beaureucratic institution managing their relationship with Jesus Christ or God.
Well, I guess a Catholic would say here that this is because that is the way Jesus designed it.
As far as Mary Ann Glendon goes … from my very limited knowledge of Catholic history, I could only assume that women have made progress in spite of rather than because of the Catholic church.
Mary Ann Glendon connected the dots on how it was specifically the Catholic Church that has caused so much progress for women, especially if you compare her to any other institution.
But we needn’t get into a discussion of history, since I see religious history, much like I see American history. Being that it is guided much more by your a priori philosophical premises than by ‘facts’. History, as we all know, is no ‘hard’ science. For example, I’d be willing to bet that your view of American history is much more closely alligned to Howard Zinn’s view, and I know my view of American history is much more alligned to Paul Johnson’s view. In both cases, were both looking at the same ‘facts’, but we arrive at vastly different conclusions. The reason being because our starting points, and our biases, go in very different directions. So arguing over history is a waste of time unless you first discuss biases and premises…
My problem is that they discourage people from thinking critically.
I can see where your coming from here, but I still disagree. The Catholic Church gives plenty of avenues for those who wish to dig deeper. You can go to universities all across the country, or the world even, for those who have a thirst to give defenses for their faith. There are even online organizations that help with this.
On the other hand, if your point is that the priest at Church doesn’t push people to think logically, than I would have to agree. But this is because the purpose of going to Church on Sunday is not to learn logic skills, but to learn holy skills. Skills that make you a better person, that teach the tenants of the Church in such a way that all can understand.
You have to understand Oso, not all people are born intellectuals. Not all people have the capacity, or even desire, to debate every single belief they have, and that is okay. I am reminded of my grandma here, who still has a hard time operating a microwave. I am sure that when she goes to Church on Sunday’s, she is much more interested in the decree to live a Godly life than the Law of Non-Contradiction. But for those born intellectuals, the avenue is there for the taking.
Before I end this Catholic talk, I want to explain a bit more on where I am coming from. As you know, I am Catholic and grew up Catholic. But I am not religious by anyones standards. Never was growing up, and have never been since than.
My great respect and admiration for the Catholic Church has come later in life, after I became pro-life and started getting more involved with that movement. The vast amount of Catholics involved in the pro-life movement is enough to make all pro-lifers, be they, protestant, muslim or even atheist, sit back and notice the wonderful things the Church is doing. In addition, by constantly following the abortion debates, which are heavily influenced by Catholic writers and philosophers, one can’t help but understand, and greatly admire, the power of the Catholic argument. So with that said, I have come to appreciate more the faith I was given as a child, and get a little defensive when it is attacked, especially when it is done with, what I believe to be, very weak straw man arguments.
Now, onto the import part of this discussion, you write,
Still, I can’t help but cringe whenever someone is called a sell out, whatever the reason. Liberal or conservative, rich or poor, dark or light, accent or no accent, enchiladas or hamburgers, Los Tigres del Norte or Eliot Smilth: your identity is what you make of it. Nothing more and nothing less.
While I generally agree with what you say here, I still believe that the Mexican/Catholic culture is much more alligned to the conservative political philosophy than the liberal political philosophy. While I wouldn’t call someone a sell out, I do believe that those who have went the liberal route must sacrifice part of their heritage to do so. Whereas going the conservative route is much more a continuation of that heritage we grew up with as children. And I’d be willing to discuss this with anybody who disagrees….
Oh yeah, I meant to also say thanks for not taking my other post personal, you know I see you as the exception not the norm…You know you my boy.
It’s funny because if I remember your essential characterization of liberals versus conservatives it was that liberals believe people are good but dumb while conservatives believe they’re (evil?) and smart.
I agree, not everyone has the desire to reflect on their beliefs, but I do believe that everyone (or nearly everyone) has the capacity. It’s what makes us human.
I have a tough time buying the argument though that people should be told how to behave because they don’t have the desire to decide for themselves.
I know we’re trying to keep this impersonal, but if we weren’t I would ask you why you choose to behave differently from how the catholic church tells you to.
This is what I quoted as to the difference between liberals and conservatives,
Notice the paranthesis, I didn’t imply ‘evil’, I meant it in the sense of self interested. Conservatives tend to see the world like economists do, everybody has its own motives and self-interests at work here, our duty is to efficiently order those self-interests to benefit the greatest number of people.
I agree, not everyone has the desire to reflect on their beliefs, but I do believe that everyone (or nearly everyone) has the capacity. It’s what makes us human.
Even if everybody had the capacity, not everyone has the desire. The purpose of Mass on Sunday’s is not to teach you how to defend your beliefs, but how to live your beliefs.
But like I said above, everybody who wishes to can. The opportunity is there for the taking….You keep framing this as if its an either/or, when in reality it is a both/and. It’s just everything at its proper time and place.
Where in the heck do you get handcuffs small enough not to slip right off the wrists of a five-year-old?
Good point. I hadn’t thought about that. Pre-meditated … those bastards.