my comment about the “smoke and mirrors” was in jest.

as for the statement about the new trend of minority conservatives… I’m just saying the press (both mainstream and alternative) these days are acting as if minority conservatives are something new under the sun, when anyone that takes a passing interest in history would learn that minority groups in their struggles to “fit in” or “achieve” have often internalized the conservative values of the mainstream society–even bringing them to a new level.

I have no ideal if these new CMs represent a new philosophy/politics/worldview… but they are not “originating” as a context-free new force at this point in time–there is a long tradition and they sound very similar to white conservatives (in my very partial and incomplete readings/discussions)?

Great quote from the Black Pundit–he wiffed big time on that one. Who came up with their name first: the Hispanic Pundit or the Black Pundit?

Thivai … marxism, existentialism, buddhism, yoga (all ill-formed and misunderstood–luckily the middle two thrive on that)

I understand your frustration … but remember the writer is responsible for the effective communication of their ideas. If you are having problems being misunderstood by your readers then you might want to refine your writing. You seem to throw out a lot of general statements as if your readers should just nod their head and say “yep.”

My intent was to just point out some of these generalizations, essentialist assumptions, and fallacies …

Once again in this response you do the same thing, but like you I am tired and have other responsibilities so I’ll let it go for now in order to pay attention to other projects…

Let me just mention, I believe there really is nothing harmful in watching TV–its only a problem if it monopolizes one’s time and attention–or if it is there only osurce of information (not speaking to you directly–just refining my earlier comments on the problems of TV).

Perhaps when you have more time and I have more time we can disagree some more… good luck on your GRE’s (the anticipation is much more worse than the test–at least it was for me)

Thivai… neither solely of a liberal or conservative mindset, rather both/and… as well as…

So here, let me try to explain this better. You write,

This seems somewhat naive in that you think cultural definitions and experiences of race, ethnicity, gender and sexuality are “solely” biological determined and that homosexuality is “solely” determined by mental action…

I made no such claim. I intentionally sidestepped the contentious issue of whether homosexuality is innate or not. I did so because it is completely irrelevant to the discussion. For example, if you were a homosexual (for example, with innate homosexual desires) who decided not to act out those desires, and if I was a heterosexual who, for some reason or another, decided to perform homosexual acts, the definition of homosexual, atleast in the way Christians use it, would apply to me, not you.

My point here is that the way the term is coined, specifically in moral philosophical discussions, is with its relation to the act, not the person. This is why I specifically used the analogy of masterbation. Who would deny that sexual desires are inherent in a person? Yet the Catholic Church specifically forbids this. In other words, it is irrelevant whether you are wired towards such acts, or not.

This is not the case with regard to sex, or race, or what not. For example, what acts can you give that seperate a black person as opposed to a white person? Or a male as opposed to a female? This is not the case with regard to homosexuality.

This is how a friend of mine framed it,

I sometimes shutter a bit when I hear homosexuals compare their ordeal for equal rights with those of other so-called minorities. “Minorities” have been, and are still immorally discriminated against due to ascribed physical traits, while homosexuals face discrimination because of their conduct.

Homosexuals face immoral discrimination because of their behavior, not because their appearance.

Perhaps a small difference, but a difference none the less; and one that is worth mentioning.

So your comparisons to race, gender, etc…is not comparing apples to apples.

As for my considering vegetarians my comrades… I wouldn’t make that assumption just because someone is a vegetarian. A major problem is your essentialist thinking.

I was just trying to use a group of people that forbid acts that I assumed you might find acceptable, and ask you if you would consider them fellow liberals, even though they may find your practice of eating meat abhorant. Vegeterians just happened to be the first group that popped into my mind.

Are all Christians conservatives? Once again this seems to be an essentialist distillation that ignores the radical characteristics of Christianity (ignored by many American protestants–although there is a powerful strand of progressive American Christians). For instance, Liberation Theology, Quakers, Episcopilians (some), Progressive Christian Groups, Unitarian Universalists, etc…

For the record, I was just answering your direct question of whether or not this women can be classified as a conservative, while still maintaining her Christian principles and practices.

You wrote,

Is this the face of minority conservatism? One of the more interesting statements from this conservative, wealthy African-American woman (in an interracial marriage) was her statement to the homosexual woman that if she would “just hide her true identity a bit” she would be able to achieve so much more in life.(emphasis added)

I was just responding. I did not imply that Christian means Republican, or that all Christians are Republican, or whatever you read into my post.

On a side note, I wasn’t trying to imply that conservatives actually watch less TV, I was just trying to make light of the situation by using a commonly heard stereotype that conservatives discourage watching TV, that’s all (For the record, aside from Fox News , I watch hardly any TV at all).

In my experience conservatives are the main consumers of network TV (look at the repressed content of sex as titilation–TV news shows, very conservative–ratio of cop shows, have you read Hakim Bey on “cop culture” on TV) My conservative students are fascinated by Reality TV and celebrities–I haven’t figured it out yet, but I’m thinking about it… what is it they are missing?

“Homosexuality, unlike race, unlike ethnicity, unlike sex, is defined by its actions.”

This seems somewhat naive in that you think cultural definitions and experiences of race, ethnicity, gender and sexuality are “solely” biological determined and that homosexuality is “solely” determined by mental action…

Did you lay in your bed as an adolescent/teen and ponder whether you wanted to fuck males or females, wrestling with the decision, until you made the “right” choice/action? ??? Or did you just become attracted toward a particular sex because that is inherently your orientation (however you want to deem its origins–nature or nuture, the reality of this attraction is beyond simplistic designations of “choice”)… you might think about your stance here? Furtermore, designations of ethnicity, race, sexuality and gender should also be “analyzed, criticized, and debated” along with designations of heterosexuality and homosexuality and every other sexual orientation.

I have no problems with religions deciding they find something immoral and condemning it… I have a problem with them attempting to legislate their fantasies. Don’t forget (like the african american woman on Wife Swap) that it wasn’t to long ago that interracial relationships were considered “immoral” and “abhorrent” and “illegal”–often resulting in violence and death. Go visit a Christian Identity (more self-identified conservatives) site to check out current racist views on interacial relationships…

It is never compassionate to make a person cry and to tell them their life has no value–that their love for another person is evil and an abomination… how fucked up must be a person to do that to another person. Any Christian (a real Christian?) would condemn this as cruel and a betrayal of Christ’s teachings (you know the guy that hung out with the workers, prostitutes, and thieving tax collectors). Jesus preached radical love for others, not discriminatory hatred…

As for my considering vegetarians my comrades… I wouldn’t make that assumption just because someone is a vegetarian. A major problem is your essentialist thinking.

Vegetarians = eating habits outside the mainstream
Thivai = thoughts outside the mainstream
Thivai and vegetarians are comrades

Faulty reasoning…

Vegetarians come in all stripes and the choice to forgo meat doesn’t have a direct correlation with someones political beliefs. I have found vegetarians with wonderful open personalities and I have found vegetarians with oppressive, controlling, intolerent temperments.

“In the same way a Christian, whether I agree with her or not, is a conservative regardless of her religious affiliation.”

Are all Christians conservatives? Once again this seems to be an essentialist distillation that ignores the radical characteristics of Christianity (ignored by many American protestants–although there is a powerful strand of progressive American Christians). For instance, Liberation Theology, Quakers, Episcopilians (some), Progressive Christian Groups, Unitarian Universalists, etc…

I look forward to your posts on conservatives and liberals (mostly because I find the designations somewhat ridiculous and seek to understand why people so fiercely embrace them as their major identification) and hope you give as good as you get. I also hope that you develop a stronger sense of self-reflexivity mapping out your own frameworks (as you attempt to dismantle others).

Peace,

Thivai (who is seriously fucked-up, hypocritical and often fails to recognize his own frameworks)

I tend to follow a strict policy of not engaging in topics that are ‘hot’ and I can careless about. Reason being that the discussion will quickly become a great black hole that sucks all of my time. And why waste my time on things that I have no interest in.

With that said, since you specifically called me out, I will respond but keep in mind that I will not defend my position, only explain it. In addition, I have not watched the episode in question, or for that matter, any of the episodes that have been featured (TV, what is that? Conservatives discourage TV, remember!!!).

Homosexuality, unlike race, unlike ethnicity, unlike sex, is defined by its actions. It is a behavioral attribute, and as such, can be analyzed, criticized, and debated on like all other actions. This distinction may be subtle, but it is fundamental.

So, with that said, some religions find homosexuality immoral. You may agree or you may disagree, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is an issue religions are free to disagree with.

For example, the Catholic Church teaches that masterbation is wrong. You may disagree, you may agree, but that is clearly the Churches right to teach that. If I find a Catholic who argues against masterbation, I listen to what he has to say, process it and make up my own mind. But I don’t take it personally even if I do may masterbate myself.

Now, if I understand Christians correctly, I think their philosophy dictates that it is in fact compassionate to tell someone who is commiting immoral acts that those acts may result in the damnation of the individual. But if the person doesn’t share those views, they can always either ignore the person, or tell the person to leave them alone.

So do I consider her a conservative, following conservative philosophy. Sure, I don’t see why not. I am sure you consider vegeterians your comrads, even though you may personally see nothing wrong with eating meat.

In the same way a Christian, whether I agree with her or not, is a conservative regardless of her religious affiliation.

I hope that helps.

Now, as far as issues I do care about, you mentioned liberals were calling me a sell out and what not above, well hopefully in the next few months, when I am studying for my GRE, I can devote more time to blogging and online discussions. Because I have had it on my ‘things to do list’ for some time now to go out gunning for these liberals, especially the minority (specifically Mexican) ones. The more I study politics, specifically the differences between liberals and conservatives, the more I realize that a Mexican who stays true to his cultural roots (as I have!!), will be much more at home in the Conservative Philosophy than in the Liberal one, and I think a good public discourse on that topic will be healthy and give everybody a chance to see who is right. So stay tuned, good times are coming!!!

Top Ten Reasons I Dislike Bush (The President!) In No Particular Order (not just Bush personally, but also his whole administration):

Using Religion as a Club (I was raised by Holy Roller grandparents when i was young–I know fanaticism when I see it)

State Sponsored Homophobia

The Continuing Rollback on the Environmental Regulations of the 1970s

The Continuing Assault on Labor

The Coddling Of Corporate Offenders

This Ridiculous War (I know you didn’t want to mention the war–if I was a Bush supporter I wouldn’t want to either)

The Hypocritical Pose That He Is a Washington Outsider (he’s the fucking son of a former president!)

His Pathetic Attempt At Fixing Education Through Standarized Testing

The Fact That He is In No Way a Conservative (as in conserving and restoring)

The Fact That He is Proud That He Does Not Read!

and a bonus bitch:

His Spoiled Child Smirk (seriously people, you know this man, you’ve dealt with man-childs just like for most of your life)

Peace Hispanic Pundit … last year I was placed in the strange position of condemning so-called liberals at Progressive Blog Alliance because they were condemning you for having an opinion and because they were calling you a sell out to your race. I thought it was one of the most ridiculous statements I had heard (that minorities “should” only be liberal otherwise they are selling out their people) and found it to be very disturbing coming from people posing as progressives…