-Abogado

OK, pues. lol

“You just did, and in the same post no less.”

-Abogado

I disagree.

“Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m sure I no longer need to ask) but the reason you are asking a Chicana is because you believe she has something to add that a “non-Chicana” does not.

-Abogado

You are not completely wrong. Of course, I have never argued that cultural experiences can’t or don’t add to the growth of society, but rather that if there are any benefits as a result of “racial diversity” they would not outweigh the immoral practice of judging or discriminating, in part, on the basis of skin color;which is what affirmative action does.

Now, Mexican citizenry does not equate to “race;” and subsequently, Chicano (a US citizen of Mexican lineage), correct me if I am wrong, is not a racial classification. I guess you mean that it is the culture of the applicant that should be judged when considering his/her application to universities and not their “race” (i.e. skin color). Am I correct?

I was not seeking cindylu’s participation because of her race, but because she, being a Chicana (a supposed beneficiary of liberal policies), has (IMO) a direct and vested interest in said policies; that in no way supports your supposition that diversity is beneficial to higher education.

If “diversity” were to be needed or useful in this argument then I suppose we’d have to obtain an opinion on the matter from every culture so that the topic is fully explored. But I wonder, what could an Armenian (his/her cultural experiences) add to the discourse on affirmative action, where the “underrepresented” are primarily Black and Brown peoples?

“Same goes in a classroom”

-Abogado

Yes, if the class was covering a topic that directly or indirectly affected Chicanos then I would tend to agree with you. But what role if any would a Black’s or Chicano’s race (skin color) or culture play in discussion of matamatical theories or biology? Would you agree that one’s skin color or culture would add nothing to the discourse of the “hard” sciences?

Pinche gueros, usaran cualesquier razon para celebrar!

true.

“However, an argument could be made that a black or latino, regardless of thier economic status, could offer more in the way of differing opinions in a class room that consists of over-represented whites and asians. I wouldn’t particularly want to defend this point, but I think it could be done in good faith.

-Abogado

I disagree with you on this; I would like for someone to make and defend/support this argument.
…
I would appreciate a full and complete dialogue with you, a Chicana.

You just did, and in the same post no less. Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m sure I no longer need to ask) but the reason you are asking a Chicana is because you believe she has something to add that a “non-Chicana” does not. Same goes in a classroom, and there is your argument.

-Abogado

Finally, you get it, well sort of.

LOL! Pinche gueros, usaran cualesquier razon para celebrar!

No need to cheer, “homie.”

“However, an argument could be made that a black or latino, regardless of thier economic status, could offer more in the way of differing opinions in a class room that consists of over-represented whites and asians. I wouldn’t particularly want to defend this point, but I think it could be done in good faith.

-Abogado

I disagree with you on this; I would like for someone to make and defend/support this argument.

“Observer, I know I haven’t replied to the previous exchange, and I don’t know if I will…”

-cindylu

Well, I’ll take what I can get. However, I would appreciate a full and complete dialogue with you, a Chicana.

“If you want to make a strong arguement based on more than just anecdotal evidence against race-conscisous admissions policies or programs targeting underrepresented minorities, I would suggest you look into some of this research…”

-cindylu

Thank you, I may do that. Have you any links that you would share with me?

However, my anecdotal experiences, I think, are hardly an aberration. In fact, all of my friends how have attended college and/or high school have had similar experiences. Indeed, for many of them (college educated or not) the question is a no brainier! Of course people by and large “stick to their own.”

If you and I were to stroll along Bruin Walk at UCLA I am sure we would witness the de facto segregation practiced overwhelmingly by the students. Indeed, we need only look at the proliferation of extracurricular racially/ethnically clannish college groups all across the US; such as, Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan (M.E.Ch.A.), Black Student Union (BSU), Club Latino United for Education (C.L.U.E at S.M.C.) to further highlight the anti-diversity trend among some “minorities” who attend college campuses.

However, this is not to suggest that no cultural diffusion occurs at colleges or society in general. Indeed, I have witnessed many instances of people of varying races/ethnicities interacting with on another. What I am saying is it no where as prevalent as the proponents of affirmative action would have the general public believe, and that “diversity” that is claimed to be a benefit to higher education is not even occurring as claimed by people in the pro-affirmative action camp.

But, even if racial diversity were to bring about benefits, and occur at the magnitude that some would have society believe it still, in my opinion, does not justify taking into account the race of an applicant. To do so would contradict the famous words of Dr. Martin Luther King, “I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”

You have stated that a “less-diverse student body” hurts education, so do you conclude that Morehouse University and Grambling University (traditionally Black universities) are harming their student body by maintaining an overwhelmingly Black student body? If not, why not?

Abogado also touched on this topic. I know there is a great deal of evidence about the benefits of attending a Historically Black College or University (HBCU) for black students. Scholars like Walter Allen have looked at this. There is no way to deny that HBCU’s educate a number of black leaders in many areas as well as educate a large number of students in fields like the sciences.

Also, as I mentioned before there are tons of articles out there based on empirical research (both qualitative and quantitative) that show the benefits of diversity for students in higher education. There are some that focus on the classroom and others that examine the day-to-day interaction that goes on outside of the classroom. If you want to make a strong arguement based on more than just anecdotal evidence against race-conscisous admissions policies or programs targeting underrepresented minorities, I would suggest you look into some of this research… if only to be able to critique it.

Finally, I think appreciating diversity does come from taking into the backgrounds of people.

Consider my hypothetical of an upper Black or “Latino” applicant who has lived his/her entire life in Pacific Palisades (an extremely wealthy area) what “diversity” could he/she offer that is more beneficial than a white or Asian applicant who resides in the same area?

has always been my problem with affirmative action. I totally agree. However, an argument could be made that a black or latino, regardless of thier economic status, could offer more in the way of differing opinions in a class room that consists of over-represented whites and asians. I wouldn’t particularly want to defend this point, but I think it could be done in good faith.

As for this:

You have stated that a “less-diverse student body” hurts education, so do you conclude that Morehouse University and Grambling University (traditionally Black universities) are harming their student body by maintaining an overwhelmingly Black student body? If not, why not?

I would guess (unsubstantiated – my new favorite word) that it does harm the overall learning experience. Also, if you consider that higher education is partially meant to prepare a person to function in a diverse American society, then these schools are certainly leaving out an important part of that socialization. I have never looked in to any data regarding these schools, but my feeling (I could be way off base here) is that they are meant to provide education to those who would not get it elsewhere. I do admit having divided sympathies here, but again my contentions about diversity are considered as part of a whole of educational experience.

Well gosh you poor thing, I sure hope you have taken a well earned rest and that you’re no longer grumpy.

Thanks. I do feel better now.

I would label any individual who thinks and displays his/her thoughts on the ‘net a “‘net intellectual,” that you feel that you have garnered distinction is an unintended occurrence, sorry.

Well then, cheers to my fellow net intellectual!

If A process uses race in any way as a guide or as a discriminate factor it assumes way too much, but if diversity is one of an applicant’s life experiences then I could easily agree that such diversity would have merit and/or value to the development and growth of society.

Exactly. (hug)

No, it’s not crazy….it’s sounds “reasonable”. –DD

-HP

To be clear, I have never argued against the “benefits of diversity,” it is the type of diversity sought that I question. If A process uses race in any way as a guide or as a discriminate factor it assumes way too much, but if diversity is one of an applicant’s life experiences then I could easily agree that such diversity would have merit and/or value to the development and growth of society.

“It is very fulfilling to have friends of different races, different backgrounds, different sexes, all working together with absolutely no regard to who you are or where you came from.”

-HP

Perhaps I am mistaken, but it is the precisely the “differences” (argued to be in existence solely on account of one’s race) of the intended targets of affirmative action that supposedly make factoring race into the discriminatory process a good thing.

So HP, not only is it absolutely taken into account “where you come from,” it is also absolutely necessary that “differences” be considered for the “experiment” to have a chance to succeed. Otherwise, what would be the point of “diversity?”