Posted 3 years, 5 months ago in the wee hours by oso
This is the fourth post in a series of five. Here are parts one, two, and three.
- Semantics
-
The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form
-
The study of the relationships between various signs and symbols and what they represent.
- Minority
-
The smaller in number of two groups forming a whole.
-
A group or party having fewer than a controlling number of votes.
-
An ethnic, racial, religious, or other group having a distinctive presence within a society.
Let me introduce you to two friends of mine.
S is 23 years old. He has dark skin, likes to smile, and almost always has 5 O’ Clock shadow. He comes from the southernmost state of a country which is described as either developing or third world. He came to the United States on a student visa when he was 18 years old. While he was able to get one small scholarship, his family still had to gave him their entire life savings to cover the costly tuition in the hope that S would one day secure a well paying job and take care of his siblings and parents. He is now in the process of applying for US residence and works as a computer programmer for a local technology firm here in San Diego. When asked if he has experienced racism here in the United States, S replies that he has experienced nothing which compares to the discrimination he suffered in his home country because his skin is darker, he is from the South, and he did not speak the official national language well. S now speaks flawless English and his accent is hardly noticeable.
N is 25 years old. He is shorter than most women he meets at the bars. Like S, he also has dark skin and also a big smile. He comes from the southernmost state of a country which is described as either developing or third world. He came to the United States when he was 19 years old. He did not know what to expect from the United States, but knew he did not want to be trapped in the same small village which has caused his family so much suffering. Upon arriving to the United States he began working a blue collar job and taking various adult ed. classes at night. One day while talking to his family back home, he mentioned that he would like to take classes at a technical trade school. The next day his family sent him their entire life savings and he enrolled. Two years later he began working as a database specialist at the same technology firm where S works. When asked if he has experienced racism here in the United States, N replies that he has experienced nothing which compares to the discrimination he suffered in his home country because his skin is darker, he is from the South, and he did not speak the official national language well. N now speaks flawless English and his accent is hardly noticeable.
S and N are now very close friends. S calls himself a moderate liberal whereas N is a staunch conservative. When S and N tell people they meet at bars what they do, N is almost always upset by their reaction. When S says he is a programmer, it is accepted without a blink, but when N says he is a database specialist, the reaction is utter shock. Some White liberals go as far as to reach out and touch N’s shoulder and offer their congratulations that he has come so far in life. S is offered nothing more than a slight smile.
N is often referred to as a minority, but S has never once been called a minority. N cannot stand the sympathy offered to him because he is considered a minority even though he comes from the same circumstances as S. He is paranoid that others might think he was hired because of his ethnicity even though he is the most capable person in his department. He hates knowing that his children will be called minorities and will be treated like minorities while S’s children will be expected to perform as well, if not better, than the average American.
S is from a small village in Kerala, India. N is from a small village in Chiapas, Mexico.
To be continued …
Hmmm.
“N is often referred to as a minority, but S has never once been called a minority. N cannot stand the sympathy offered to him because he is considered a minority even though he comes from the same circumstances as S”. — OSO
Hmmm. I am just going to shoot straight. Even though N doesn’t want sympathy….he is still considered a minority. Let’s face it…..the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964…….40 years ago.
One way to look at Affirmative Action is to think of it as a system to balance out what happened approximately 40 years ago and more.
Let’s face it…..discrimination does exist. In fact, their is a class action lawsuit going on with Boeing Aircraft. Minorities are suing the company because of poor leadership and to have the company evaluated for abusing the “good ol’ boy system”.
An artist here in Kansas works for Boeing. He told me the other day that he will never be a manager because of the color of his skin. That’s sad, if it is true. Luckily we have a judicial system where witnesses can be called and evidence can be reviewed.
We need something in place to be sure that diversity is enhanced.
If people acted the way they are supposed to…..we would not need laws. Unfortunately, people are discriminatory. People do choose members of the same race to fill “certain favored” positions within their company structure.
I am a minority. I have heard people say that I got this or that position because of the color of my skin.
I say, “Not”! It is because I am competent. And I am. I swear, sometimes some people will find an excuse to make themselves feel better. I say ignore him and tell them to go suck an egg. hee hee.
But in reality……….if those who are reading this entry, truly think that the past effects of discrimination prior to the Civil Rights Act, are settled and “up to par”. I would like to know how they come to that conclusion.
There are many parts in the midwest that are still needing to catch up to larger markets such as New York. Hell, even some parts of the southeastern part of the U.S. can be backward ass.
When the rest of the nation catches up to embracing diversity, then, and only then should we re-evaluate the situation. This is just my humble opinion.
i dont understand how the dude from kerala is never called a minorty. i’m from kerala and all anyone calls me is “minority”. even my parents. you’re telling me S has never walked into a room and, noticing hes the only non-white in the room, be referred to by friends as “the minority report”. maybe S doesnt know what the word means? thats not likely, tho, since kerala has a 100% literacy rate. durty south!
Oso,
Good stuff again bro.
He[N] is paranoid that others might think he was hired because of his ethnicity even though he is the most capable person in his department. He hates knowing that his children will be called minorities and will be treated like minorities while S’s children will be expected to perform as well, if not better, than the average American.
If I had to pick my top five reasons to be a conservative, one of the reasons would be that Republicans tend to have a more ‘merit based’ view of the world. My liberal friends think that this is a euphemism for ‘try to keep minorities down,’ but I strongly disagree.
The liberal victim view of the world, especially in today’s climate, does two things that directly hurt minorities.
1. It takes away some of the personal merit earned by making it on your own.
If someone is going to college, and you help her/him out by letting her/him crash on the couch, you give her/him money for food, rides to school etc, you have helped him/her out without taking anything away from what s/he has accomplished in school.
On the other hand, if you help this person by doing one of his/her papers for school, or sitting in on a test for them…then you have robbed him of some of the personal merit that would have been achieved by doing it themselves.
Conservative help is the former, liberal help is the latter.
I strongly believe that people, especially liberals, recognize this subconsciously, if not consciously. For example, that is why it is just ‘assumed’ that black Clarence Thomas is an embarrassment while white Scalia is wrong, but a genius, in liberal circles.
Or, to give another example, a liberal friend of mine suggested that the reason you picked me to be a guest blogger on this blog was because I am Mexican. He said that because I am Mexican, the white liberals reading my posts will be ‘nicer to me than other conservatives’. Why do liberals jump to this conclusion that states that minorities can’t make it like other races, or that we should be held to lower standards?
Like Walter Williams, when I encounter this, I want to say, “You can treat me like a white person. Ask hard, penetrating questions.”
In the climate of the past, when racism was clearly enough to stop someone from going to school, you might have avoided this logical connection, but in today’s climate, most people realize that although there is racism, there isn’t enough to stop someone from going to school. So affirmative action, and all the other race based solutions liberals promote, reduces to nothing but handicap points, and when you fight for handicap points for a group of people, people start to assume you are, well, handicapped.
2. It hides the real problem…while just bumping people into ivy leagues seems to be a solution, it hides the more serious problem. Why do you think Jews, the Japanese, and the Irish were able to succeed through much more difficult circumstances compared to blacks and my Mexican/Hispanic/Latino brothers and sisters? They did it w/o ‘handicap points.’ Why do you think that is? I think we all instinctively know this, we are just afraid to say it (especially in liberal circles!!!). As much as it pains me to say it, the honest answer is cultural. Like it or not, my culture has a problem getting more of our children in college, especially the sciences.
So affirmative action, while making everybody feel better, postpones the real talk on the real issues, the real problems. A merit based view of the world puts the problems directly in front of us to see. And recognizing it is the first step in fixing it…Conservatives, like it or not, are one step ahead of liberals.
So like my comrad in arms N, I too would want my kids to be judged by the same standards as every other group, and would be terrified, especially for my kids future, if they were not. Judge them by the same standards, and when they make it, give them the same credit, for they worked just as hard as the next guy.
hey, what happened to my avatar? WTF?!?! I used the same email address…Damn racist avator, it has it out for Mexicans!!!
I’ll chime in from the nerd world - perhaps reaction people show is related to the job description they give. Let me explain. Computer programmers are common. I’ve worked with plenty that had dark skin. However, a database specialist typically implies more experience and seniority. It also usually comes with a much higher salary than code-monkey. I have never worked with a db specialist (usually architect, perhaps our definitions of specialist are different) that was younger than 35. It could just be a matter of numbers.. I’ve worked with, or known, 10’s of programmers. DB folks I can count on one hand.
Indians (imports or yanks of Indian decent) in IT are a common thing. I’ve met a grand total of one Mexican-American in IT. Indians have the whole math-education push, so I imagine a good part of that is responsible, but the numbers are still strange. As a side note, I know zero Indian lawyers, but 6 of Mexican decent.
The short answer is, I have never met a 25 year old db specialist. Let alone one that was Mexican-American.
For the record, since it is an easy step to make the logical connection that since I am Mexican, I have children, I thought it important to make clear that the ‘my children’ statements above are meant to be taken figuratively, I currently have no children.
“So affirmative action, while making everybody feel better, postpones the real talk on the real issues, the real problems. A merit based view of the world puts the problems directly in front of us to see. And recognizing it is the first step in fixing it…Conservatives, like it or not, are one step ahead of liberals”.
–HispanicPundit
I don’t think that affirmative action just makes people feel better. It helps balance things out until most of the ‘old thinkers’…… the ‘older crowd’ who grew up with biases and grew up with the mentality that minorites are beneath them…….start to die off.
Again……….if people acted the way they are supposed to…..we would not need laws.
Fact of the matter remains that the Act was passed only 40 years ago. We are making progress. But before you do a complete overhaul with affirmative action……….one must take a look at company demographics. The good ol’ boy system still exists……..if it were not for affirmative action………the good ol’ boy network would be more rapid.
–DD
“In the climate of the past, when racism was clearly enough to stop someone from going to school, you might have avoided this logical connection, but in today’s climate, most people realize that although there is racism, there isn’t enough to stop someone from going to school. So affirmative action, and all the other race based solutions liberals promote, reduces to nothing but handicap points, and when you fight for handicap points for a group of people, people start to assume you are, well, handicapped”.
–HispanicPundit
Right, there isn’t enough to stop someone from going to school.
It is my understanding that the object of Affirmative Action was to eliminate past and current discrimation.
I think things are progressing, but the good ol’ boy network still exists and is very real.
Laws are in place so that school administrators, businesses, employers, and yada, yada, yada will know that violating same is against the law. If they violate the law, then they know they will have to suffer the consequences.
–DD
“The liberal victim view of the world, especially in today’s climate, does two things that directly hurt minorities.
1. It takes away some of the personal merit earned by making it on your own”.
–HispanicPundit
And who has the minority interest at heart? The liberal? Nay. Are the liberals going to ensure that colleges encourage diversity? Are the liberals going to ensure that employers are not discriminating? Are the liberals going to make sure that theaters, clubs and local businesses are not participating in discrimination? Where are the liberals? Are they an authority? Who puts things in check and balance?
The law does. And we use the law and blow the whistle when we see injustice. If it weren’t for affirmative action there would be “NO RECOURSE”.
The law helps to restore balance. That is why we need affirmative action, to prevent racist bastards from doing what they are doing.
And as far as your analogy and strong belief that “liberals” are not helping minorities………..well I sort of see where you are coming from HP.
It is my conviction that we need to go through a little bit of stretch yet before things are somewhat balanced. So “until” things are balanced…… you and me, need to endure some disappointment. We need to press on towards the goal and not let liberal “sneers” affect us. They are acting that way because they want and need to feel superior. We minorities need to deal with that until things are somewhat fair and balanced.
If tables were turned around……..and when minorities become the majority………the “white” race may need affirmative action.
Again…..it was just 40 years ago that minorities could not even share a public restroom. Even after the Act was passed……things didn’t change right away. It took a while for the smoke to clear and enforcement to take place.
But there is hope………..as our population grows and as the racist bastards die off, things should be on the up and up.
Too bad we do not live in an idealistic world.
–DD
DD,
I think the whole ‘there is still enough racism out there to justify affirmative action’ is, to put it bluntly, a bunch of bullshit. Anybody who has been on college campuses recently realizes that colleges bend over backwards to get minorities into schools. They even create programs like the one Oso was involved in. I have friends that grew up in the
ghettoinner cities that had their whole education paid for them because they were minorities and where they came from.In todays culture, any racist who is purposely trying to keep minorities out would be easily identified, and quickly removed from any campus.
So please, spell it out for me DD, do you honestly think that there are racists on college boards that truly want to keep minorities out? Yes or no?
If you answer yes…I got a bridge to sell to you.
Dude, I am Republican remember? You really got to fix that avatar, we Republicans are not very comfortable presenting ourselves as the opposite sex in public!!!
Before I open up a can of “whoop ass” on ya, HP. Are we talking about affirmative action in a general sense as I described or in an educational setting?
I am discussing affirmative action in the broad, general sense.
To keep things focused, lets just discuss it in an educational sense.
And please, give me all the whoop ass you can…like Walter Williams, “You can treat me like a white person[one that doesn't receive
handicap pointsaffirmative action]. Ask hard, penetrating questions.”“To keep things focused, lets just discuss it in an educational sense”.
–HP
Ok……..but to be fair, Oso said this:
“S and N are now very close friends. S calls himself a moderate liberal whereas N is a staunch conservative. When S and N tell people they meet at bars what they do, N is almost always upset by their reaction. When S says he is a programmer, it is accepted without a blink, but when N says he is a database specialist, the reaction is utter shock. Some White liberals go as far as to reach out and touch N’s shoulder and offer their congratulations that he has come so far in life. S is offered nothing more than a slight smile”.
–Oso
He is talking about an employment setting here. Maybe I am confused here.
And……that may be where I was tempted in doing my “shot gun” method, since the odds would be in my favor naturally.
Soooo, you want to minimize this discussion from here on out and focus on education ONLY, am I right?
Yes…for the second time.
Come on DD, don’t second guess yourself now, give it to me on an educational setting. I want all the whoop ass you can give.
I promise to be nice. Not because you are a minority either, simply because your a girl.
(Hoping that will provoke her enough to get her to completely speak her mind)
I can whoop your ass better if you allow me to debate this matter in the whole, broader sense……not just a portion of affirmative action.
I take it you can’t handle the “whole” thing, right? If you can’t talk about it in it’s entirety, please just admit it.
–DD
“Anybody who has been on college campuses recently realizes that colleges bend over backwards to get minorities into schools. They even create programs like the one Oso was involved in. I have friends that grew up in the ghetto inner cities that had their whole education paid for them because they were minorities and where they came from”.
–HP
This is happening in the INNER CITIES right? Because I have never heard of this before. This is the first time I have heard of colleges bending over backwards.
Even so……………..
…….don’t you think inner city kids need this?
It sounds to me that those who have a problem with “help” and those who view this as a “handicap”, are possibly the same individuals who have “machismo” problems.
Lastly, for the second time, if tables were turned around……..and when minorities become the majority………the “white” race may need affirmative action as well.
I can whoop your ass better if you allow me to debate this matter in the whole, broader sense……not just a portion of affirmative action.
I’ll take your word for it.
This is happening in the INNER CITIES right? Because I have never heard of this before. This is the first time I have heard of colleges bending over backwards.
You need to spend more time on college campuses. I have been on several, even prestigious ones (USC, UCSD etc) for the last 10 years, and it is a fact that colleges bend over backwards to try and admit more minorities. Not just colleges either, but student loan programs. I can name you scholarship after scholarship that will pay for part of your schooling, if not all of it, if you are a minority. I have a friend of mine that got her bachelors degree from USC in Music, who had her whole tution, room and board, school supplies, and even part of her car payment paid for her by a scholarship. On top of that, she didn’t even have the highest grades in her highschool class, yet she was accepted at one of the most prestigious universities in southern california (USC).
It is a fact of our time that the problem in getting minorities into universities is not at the university level, it is primarily at the cultural level (and public education level, VOUCHERS BABY!!!).
Even so……………..
…….don’t you think inner city kids need this?
Don’t confuse things here, DD. I am not arguing against ‘affirmative action’ based on income. If you were making the argument that there should be some type of affirmative action for those living in poverty, that would be a whole different discussion. But you’re not, you are supporting affirmative action based on race. So unless you are making the argument that all Mexicans are poor dishwashers and house cleaners, you need to make a distinction between the two when talking about affirmative action.
It sounds to me that those who have a problem with “help” and those who view this as a “handicap”, are possibly the same individuals who have “machismo” problems.
If your going to say that, than I’ll respond in kind. And say that those that have no problem with affirmative action based on race have low dignity, and self respect.
Lastly, for the second time, if tables were turned around……..and when minorities become the majority………the “white” race may need affirmative action as well.
I wonder what your opinion is on why Japanese, Jews, and even Indians don’t need affirmative action to succeed? They, like us Mexicans, are a minority group, and overall easily identifiable too. Are you ready to argue that the racism prevelant in society that justifies affirmative action only discriminates against Mexicans, but not Indians too?
Like I said earlier DD, spell it out for me. Give me straight forward yes or no answers. I want to flush this victimology out of you, it is destructive, and an ugly way to see yourself.
Man, if I didn’t have to work on a paper on Du Bois’ notion of “double consciousness” I would have a lot more to post on the issue of affirmative action, access for underrepresented minority students (blacks, Latinos and Native Americans), and campus climate for URM’s.
Excuses, excuses. Bring it on baby!!! I can take two girls on at a time easily.
I can whoop your ass better if you allow me to debate this matter in the whole, broader sense……not just a portion of affirmative action.
–DD
I’ll take your word for it.
–HP
Just wanted to relish in your concession.
–DD
……I have a friend of mine that got her bachelors degree from USC in Music, who had her whole tuition, room and board, school supplies, and even part of her car payment paid for her by a scholarship. On top of that, she didn’t even have the highest grades in her highschool class, yet she was accepted at one of the most prestigious universities in southern california (USC).
–HP
And so did this friend of your become a productive member of society? Is she doing well for herself? If so, then this is good. Again, the purpose of affirmative action is to encourage diversity. It’s not like all minorities get a free ride based on being a minority. I certainly didn’t get a free ride.
–DD
It is a fact of our time that the problem in getting minorities into universities is not at the university level, it is primarily at the cultural level (and public education level, VOUCHERS BABY!!!).
–HP
Yes, it is at the cultural level, many 1st generation Mexicano’s are not aware of such programs you speak of. Why is that? I haven’t even heard of these free ride programs. Do minorities have to be considered “poverty level” in order to get into these types of programs? School me on this.
–DD
Don’t confuse things here, DD. I am not arguing against ‘affirmative action’ based on income. If you were making the argument that there should be some type of affirmative action for those living in poverty, that would be a whole different discussion. But you’re not, you are supporting affirmative action based on race.
–HP
I’m not the one confusing things around here, HP, you are taking one small portion of affirmative action and I am defending it in it’s entirety. I’m sorry if you are misunderstanding me.
–DD
So unless you are making the argument that all Mexicans are poor dishwashers and house cleaners, you need to make a distinction between the two when talking about affirmative action.
–HP
I am not making the argument that “ALL” Mexicano’s are dishwashers and so forth……I am simply trying to defend the purpose of affirmative action in the first place, which was to eliminate past and current discrimination.
Can you prove to me that discrimination does not occur in colleges? If affirmative action is done away with in the educational setting……what guarantee you can offer that will prevent abuse when it comes to colleges accepting minorities?
–DD
If your going to say that, than I’ll respond in kind. And say that those that have no problem with affirmative action based on race have low dignity, and self respect.
–HP
Again, “you” will respond in that manner. How would others feel that you are speaking on behalf of them.
Again, I am for those who are in the minority group class. This includes all races. If there comes a day when the white race becomes a minority………they should receive the same type of “recourse”.
–DD
I wonder what your opinion is on why Japanese, Jews, and even Indians don’t need affirmative action to succeed? They, like us Mexicans, are a minority group, and overall easily identifiable too. Are you ready to argue that the racism prevelant in society that justifies affirmative action only discriminates against Mexicans, but not Indians too?
–HP
I think all minority group classes should be protected.
Quote:
‘In the 1960s, many Jews and African-Americans sought to forge alliances based on this common history. Jews were in the forefront of the struggle for civil rights. We cherish the image of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, marching alongside Dr. Martin Luther King’.
–DD
Like I said earlier DD, spell it out for me. Give me straight forward yes or no answers.
–HP
I will give you straight forward answers when you give me straight ones as well.
–DD
I want to flush this victimology out of you, it is destructive, and an ugly way to see yourself.
–HP
Victimology?
I am just watching out for the minority group. What is wrong about that? You do know that there will always be a victim……..sort of like Saddam Hussein and his genocide practices towards the Shiite Muslims.
But we won’t go there, will we?
Damn, HP……..I will let you have the last word tonight…….just for tonight only. Hee hee. Then I will be fresh and alert to whoop that ass of yours again. lol! Buenas noches.
Like I said earlier DD, keeping affirmative action down to the educational level helps to keep the discussion focused. Once we open the door to all areas of ‘discrimation’, we will go round and round on different life experiences, eventually getting no where, with a lot more time wasted. If you can’t make your point on this limited area, than I have a pretty good feeling you won’t be able to make your point in the broader area either. I save a lot of time keeping things focused (for the record though, I am less against ‘affirmative action’ in the work place than in academia).
With that said, it seems that a lot of the reason you are still for affirmative action is that you have lost touch with how college universities are currently run. In todays atmosphere, it is a self evident fact that universities bend over backwards to get more minorities enrolled. This is true even without their affirmative action programs.
DD, as for your quote, “‘In the 1960s, many Jews and African-Americans sought to forge alliances based on this common history. Jews were in the forefront of the struggle for civil rights. We cherish the image of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, marching alongside Dr. Martin Luther King’.”
Why do you equate affirmative action with civil rights? Are you concluding that those of us who are against affirmative action, somehow are also against civil rights? You’re treading on dangerous ground here DD.
In addition, I have not brought up affirmative action in the past. I am specifically addressing affirmative action *today*. Are you saying that there is equal racism today in universities as there was in the 1960’s?
Victimology?
I am just watching out for the minority group. What is wrong about that?
I am also watching out for the minority group. We don’t disagree on that, we disagree on how one should watch out. I specifically mentioned two areas where I think affirmative action hurts minorities, there is also a third that i did not mention.
I will give you straight forward answers when you give me straight ones as well.
Here are my direct answers. I do *NOT* think there is enough racism in the universities to justify affirmative action. Quit the contrary, the universities are doing an overwhelming amount of work to try and attract minority students (even aside from affirmative action programs). Affirmative action, without the discrimination to justify it, reduces to nothing but handicap points (let’s call a spade a spade, shall we?), and this does cultural, if not practical damage to minorities represented by affirmative action.
And as for other minorities, to be blunt and honest, it is cultural (and public school related, AGAIN, vouchers!!!) related.
So, for the third time now, can you please answer my questions directly?
Wow, lots of good stuff (though I’m probably gonna keep out of the affirmitive action debate for now). I just got back from a long long night at work and I wanna get to the gym before it closes, but let me at least respond to Moreno.
Moreno,
I guess my general point is that I believe there is a stereotype out there - whether true or not - that you have it easier as an Indian than does someone who is Black or Latino. And also, that when someone refers to you as a minority, it has a different connotation than when someone refers to a Black or Latino as a minority. When a provost of a college says, “we need more minorities in the sciences,” he is not talking about you. That’s what I was trying to allude to with the definitions of semantics and minority.
I’m curious to hear what you think. Especially since both you and Freddie come from middle class, suburban neighborhoods in Southern California and have lived together both in Los Angeles and New York.
Also, I should make it clear that S and N are not real people. Completely fictitious. Just based on people I know. Any faults they have are my own.
HP,
The gravatar is case sensitive when it checks your email. Try not capitalizing any of your letters.
Alright, time for me to go break some ankles.
I couldn’t help it.
HP: In todays atmosphere, it is a self evident fact that universities bend over backwards to get more minorities enrolled.
If this is truly the case, then why are most underrepresented minority students in higher education not enrolled in 4-year colleges or universities, but in two-year community colleges? I don’t believe institutions of higher educations are “bending over backwards” to get minorities enrolled. The projections for population growth in the next 20 years or so show that the number of URM’s in higher education will increase, but it will still fall short of reaching parity.
There may be outreach programs like the one Oso was involved in, but such programs are on the chopping block when it comes to budget cuts, at least in California.
Yes, HP….please answer Cindylu’s question. I’m curious to know.
……I have a friend of mine that got her bachelors degree from USC in Music, who had her whole tuition, room and board, school supplies, and even part of her car payment paid for her by a scholarship. On top of that, she didn’t even have the highest grades in her highschool class, yet she was accepted at one of the most prestigious universities in southern california (USC).
–HP
And so did this friend of your become a productive member of society? Is she doing well for herself? If so, then this is good. Again, the purpose of affirmative action is to encourage diversity. It’s not like all minorities get a free ride based on being a minority. I certainly didn’t get a free ride.
–DD
Hello Cindylu,
If this is truly the case, then why are most underrepresented minority students in higher education not enrolled in 4-year colleges or universities, but in two-year community colleges?
Have you seen ‘underrepresented minority students’ average grades coming out of highschool? There not equal to ‘represented minority students’ grades. It is my belief that the problem in universities is not a problem in universities, but a problem in highschool and before(That’s why I fight for vouchers so much).
For the record, I dropped out of highschool as well. I too did some time in community college (I have my GED). Granted, my experience is limited, but most (all?) of my friends growing up, both in the ‘inner cities’ of California (Compton, Ca) and the south part of Texas (McAllen, Edinburg, Dona) where it is predominantly Hispanic, didn’t graduate highschool either. The people that did (not my friends, but aquantences), had low grades, and the ones that had decent to high grades (the nerds, lol) got accepted to some of the best universities in the country.
The positions are there, we just need to reach out to them.
I don’t believe institutions of higher educations are “bending over backwards” to get minorities enrolled. The projections for population growth in the next 20 years or so show that the number of URM’s in higher education will increase, but it will still fall short of reaching parity.
What more can universities do, pray tell? They create programs like the one Oso was in, thereby sending rich white kids (did your mother approve?) to some of the most crime infested areas of the state (btw, they never went to Compton!!). They have tutorring centers, mentor programs, etc, in fact, the more prestigious the university, the more they seem to put an effort in getting more minorities. What more can they do?
But here, lets assume for the moment that your right. That universities, because of Arnold, have hard budget cuts, and completely eliminate all minority programs. Even if that is true (which it’s not, but lets assume), you would still be hard pressed to argue that universities make an effort to limit minorities from enrolling. In other words, even without minority programs, universities are still putting great efforts to get minorities into their school. Racism, for all its practical purposes, is eliminated as a powerful force within universities.
And this is really all I need to prove my point. When a university creates a minority program that spends some of its money that should have been spent on lab equipment, or tuition for the needy etc…when it spends that money on outreach programs for minorities, it has already went above and beyond the call of duty. All us minorities, indeed all anybody should ask, is for the university to give us equal say in getting accepted, the rest should be our responsibility.
But again, all of this is going to quickly become meaningless in the next couple generations anyway. It has been my experience that most minorities I meet, especially the ‘up and comers’, the new generation, are overall against racial preferences, atleast less so than their parents. Times are changen, and its about time, I say.
And so did this friend of your become a productive member of society? Is she doing well for herself? If so, then this is good. Again, the purpose of affirmative action is to encourage diversity. It’s not like all minorities get a free ride based on being a minority. I certainly didn’t get a free ride.
This is a girl I dated somewhat seriously a few years back. She grew up in a trailor park her whole life, one that only has one room, yet four people lived inside (I still tell her that is better than living in a high crime area, but she disagrees, i guess poor is a subjective term, in the USA ).
After graduating from college, she now owns a HOME with her brother. Her mother, and other brother also live inside of it (4 bdrm home, btw). Granted, it’s not in Beverly Hills, but it is in a decent part of town (North Side Long Beach). She overall has job bouncing problems, but this is normal for someone fresh out of college (especially with her major), but owning her own home, at her age (22), is not a small matter (especially in California).
“easier as an Indian than does someone who is Black or Latino”
I think a lot of this has to do with perceived assistance. In my own life I have known many Indians who (1) learned english in India (2) had a degree in India. Yes, I’m sure this has a lot to do with my field. Of course India has a lot of problems. Poverty, caste system, etc. But I don’t think it would be a stretch to say that India tries to focus on english and education. Both help out significantly if they become immigrants to the US.
Now some blabbing on the whole minority semantics. How do we define minority?
Appearance? I am a mutt mixture of norwegian, native american, french, etc. My appearance is not that of a ‘minority’.
Economics? My family was below the poverty line in my high school and college years. Yet compared to the hardship of other countries, I would say I am not a ‘minority’.
As a Canadian in this country I am a minority, but not a ‘minority’ since I (1) blend in (2) know english (3) have a degree. We need to use some new words.
ChrisN you’re Canadian? I didn’t know that. Get out.
After graduating from college, she now owns a HOME with her brother. Her mother, and other brother also live inside of it (4 bdrm home, btw). Granted, it’s not in Beverly Hills, but it is in a decent part of town (North Side Long Beach). She overall has job bouncing problems, but this is normal for someone fresh out of college (especially with her major), but owning her own home, at her age (22), is not a small matter (especially in California).
–HP
It sounds like she is a productive member of society……and had it not been for ‘affirmative action’……..things might have been even more difficult for her.
–DD
In other words, even without minority programs, universities are still putting great efforts to get minorities into their school.
–HP
I think they put “some” efforts into getting minorities into their school because in order to receive federal assistance under Title VI, they should have some diversity.
That may not be an issue in larger markets such as San Diego and so forth, but it does become somewhat of an issue in smaller cities.
How does one ensure and guarantee that racism will be prevented all over the United States in public schools, colleges and universities??
Here are some stats I pulled from an educational website:
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/stateprofiles/sresult.asp?mode=full&displaycat=4&s1=20
I am trying to figure out impact. Are there any stats that you are aware of, where I can find out who benefits from these programs you mentioned earlier?
I would like to get right down to it……again, I never heard of colleges bending backwards to enlist minorities in their programs. I would like to know what the stats are.
Here are some concerning demographic stats that I found on that link I give:
In that year…..
144,959 college students were white
6,551 college students were hispanic (out of that…..how many hispanics participated in the types of programs that you speak of)?
9,221 college students were black (out of this population, how many participated in the programs you are speaking of)?
I guess……..in order to have somewhat of a decent debate, I need to have more facts in how this is truly impacting or “handicapping” minorities.
Nu dute aboot it.
I just got back from a long long night at work and I wanna get to the gym before it closes…….. - OSO
So how many crunches can you do?
It sounds like she is a productive member of society……and had it not been for ‘affirmative action’……..things might have been even more difficult for her.
Yes, DD. We all know Hispanics probably wouldn’t be where they are at if it weren’t for affirmative action.
Sigh
You go dig up your stats, for those of us in the academic environment, it’s a no brainer.
Come on, HP, work with me……..what percentage of the Hispanic population benefits from these types of programs?
I bet very, very little do.
Just a hunch.
–DD
Yes, DD. We all know Hispanics probably wouldn’t be where they are at if it weren’t for affirmative action.
–HP
No…………not ALL. I bet very little actually do.
But the ones that do, and ‘make it’ are forever branded by people like you.
I know people like yourself, and my liberal minority friends, think that w/o affirmative action we Mexicans would be more limited. Even though, in your heart of hearts, I think you all know that the racism isn’t in the universities anymore, you still cling to affirmative action because you think it still is a necessary program that we can’t do w/o(Where’s that Mexican orgullo when you need it?). It’s that soft bigotry of lower standards President Bush refers to so much. But I have different beliefs. I think it will be a hit at first, but the message that things need to change, the urgency of the problem, the cultural changes, will be harder to ignore and will have a ‘negative feedback’ effect, and overall we will be better off.
Like it or not, people recognize affirmative action for what it is, a few extra feet headstart in the ten meter race. Maybe when racism held people back, those extra feet were necessary for balance, but now, everybody knows it is simply that, bonus points, handicap points etc. And when a minority makes it, it’s not primarily his doing that did it, it is surely because of affirmative action and the benevolence of liberals, and you will always be seen as one who had handicap points, or as liberals would say, an embarrassment to the court.
The problem is socioeconomic not racial. I’ve pretty much always felt this way, but there are also cultural issues to be taken in to account. I’m not going to go too far in to this, but many universities have realized that SAT’s and GPA’s are just not adequate predictors of college success and they have also realized that if you give these people (white, brown whatever) the chance to succeed in college they will take even greater advantage of it than those of us who see higher education as a birth right or an entitlement. So affirmative action-type programs (though there really isn’t such a thing) help universities to serve this pupose. “The Miner’s Canary” by Loni Guinier gets in to all this with statistics and proofs. As HP noted, universities are doing these things on their own initiative because they believe they better the institution, it is the legal and political system that is holding them back. Why is that? If a business believed that having racial minorities or socioeconomic minorities on their payroll would help thier bottom line would we stop them from from seeking these people out? I’m guessing not, but the same market-type variables are at work in the universitites as well. So why the double-standard and why do politicians want to make decisions that are better left to educators. I’m just trying to show that this can be justified by a free-market, small government perspective as well as from the bleeding-heart liberal perspective.
The problem is socioeconomic not racial. I’ve pretty much always felt this way, but there are also cultural issues to be taken in to account.
You’ve just summed up this conservatives view.
But the ones that do, and ‘make it’ are forever branded by people like you.
–HP
Again………very “few” participate and enjoy the benefits of affirmative action.
That is why I am looking for any statistics that might be out there to show you that very few minorities participate in the programs you are talking about.
Don’t get all pissy with me and call me a “libbie”, you know full well that I am not one.
I don’t know how to take your “branded” statement, other than we are anyways. We are brown. Please know, and I mean this with all sincerity that I hope you are not allowing “pride” and “ego” to influence you why you think educational affirmative action should be completely done away with.
Affirmative action is supposed to make up for “past effects” of discrimination.
What you are saying is that the past effects of discrimination are settled. I want to take a conservative position and ensure that everything is fair and balanced.
Don’t get all pissy with me and call me a “libbie”, you know full well that I am not one.
If it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck…
Unknown browser
Understanding Minority Conservatives Part 2 Understanding Minority Conservatives Part 3 Understanding Minority Conservatives Part 4 In all ser [...]
If it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck…
–HP
“quack”!
Just playin’. You know I’m just kidding.
I sure wish you can guarantee me that discrimination will not take place in educational systems if affirmative action is done away with.
Look at this professor and his view…
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2495
I’m going to go out on a limb here, and I don’t want to open up the door to another round of discussions, but I have to say that I don’t hold your premise. In other words, even if there was discrimination, I still think that (race based) affirmative action is not necessary, and probably still harmful.
I have much more faith in ‘market forces’, as Milton Friedman would describe them, and cultural solutions to solving discrimination than any government regulation can do.
Again, DD, please go home tonight and think about this, why did Jews, the Japanese, and even the Irish, succeed at such high rates w/o (race based) affirmative action solutions? When you’ve thought about that for a few minutes, ask yourself why can’t us Mexicans do the same thing. Than, and only than, will you fully understand my views on discrimination and its solution.
Btw, good article. I’m definitely going to read it.
Abogado,
That’s a good point … that there is a free market argument for affirmitive action.
HP,
I’m surprised you have not read Huntington’s article. When we used to have a forum on this site, we wrote a lot about that article. I’ve got to either resurrect the forum or port the posts over to the blog somehow. Anyway, I’ve been meaning to read Huntington’s book, Who We Are? for a while now. I’d be curious to hear what you have to say about the article.
And you sound machista bro when you tell someone to go home and think until they agree with you. I’m sure there’s a cultural explanation for it.
DD,
I can do precisely 3 crunches. Except when my boy Revaz and I have our summer ab challenge. Then it’s around 10. I’d imagine you’re around 500?
And your last post was spot on - my gluteus all-of-it-is “commonly weak.” There definitely is a cultural explanation to that one. I’m pretty sure my tensor fascia latae is tight too. I think.
Oso,
I am going over it now, and it does seem like I have read parts of it before. I used to date this Salvadorean/Peru girl that was Republican, and getting her masters in Poli Sci at USC (everybody thought we were a perfect match, a kinda blind date thing). Anyway, I think this is the article she showed me once over dinner, she never gave it all to me that night, and we never got around to it afterwards, so I didn’t get a chance to finish it. It looks interesting though, I am definitely going to finish reading it (Probably after my midterm next week, though) this time.
And you sound machista bro when you tell someone to go home and think until they agree with you.
Re-read what I said. I didn’t say ‘until they agree with me’. I said ‘fully understand my views on discrimination and its solution’. I wasn’t trying to get her to agree with me, only understand my views on it (Remember, ‘answer me directly’ thing, asked three times).
But than again, theres nothing wrong with a lil machismo. I am Mexican, afterall. I have an excuse.
Hola Cindylu,
No me había dado cuenta que eres latina. Estaba viendo las fotos en flickr y vi que eres uno de nosotros. ¿Vives en San Diego? ¿De dónde eres?
I said ‘fully understand my views on discrimination and its solution’. –HP
Hmmmm. to “fully understand” can mean to accept as a fact. I understand where you are coming from, but I don’t “fully understand”. We can respectfully agree to disagree. –DD
I can do precisely 3 crunches. Except when my boy Revaz and I have our summer ab challenge. Then it’s around 10. I’d imagine you’re around 500? –OSO
Yep! Easily!
And your last post was spot on - my gluteus all-of-it-is “commonly weak.” There definitely is a cultural explanation to that one. I’m pretty sure my tensor fascia latae is tight too. I think. — OSO
I usually don’t have very many problems with my tensor fascia latae’s…. hee hee! You’re funny!
“Let’s face it…..discrimination does exist.”
-DD
This is an incontrovertible fact of life. Indeed, we have all been, at one time or another, the “victims” of discrimination, as well as the practitioners of discrimination. This may sound like heresy to some, but discrimination is very often a good thing.
In any case, there are laws which outlaw racial discrimination. The high probability that some will fail to comply with the law does not justify state in endorsing and engaging in the very practice it claims to abhor.
Indeed, should an affirmative action program, which requires a certain number of positions be allocated for midgets, be forced upon the National Basketball Association so that the “diversity” of those who are relatively short in stature can be realized in professional sports? That to me seems absurd, much like race based affirmative action programs.
Affirmative action programs, in my opinion, causes harm to the very people who its proponents claim to want to help- “minorities.” It seems that those who argue for it have only emotion on their side.
Ay yi yi. Now you! Ok, O man! I will save this for tomorrow. Read a little something to enjoy my coffee.
Oh hell yeah, you guys are in for it now. My boy Observer1 kicks ass.
Allow me to introduce him. He is a Mexican/American who grew up in the LA area as well (Montebello, am I right O?). Very smart, and very well written. He is also planning to be a historian, and knows a whole lot of stuff about history(I normally dislike historians, but I’ll make the exception for Mexican ones - call me biased, I admit it, like Howard Zinn would say, everybodies biased
).
Thanks for participating O, and I got your back dawg.
Ummmmmmmmmmm.
HP, I thought I was supposed to have the last word tonight? Remember? You had the last word last night.
Geez…….that machismo in you has got to go!
Now do your homework. lol!
Just so everybody is completely tuned in, Observer1, DD, and myself originally met on a discussion forum we all participated in (Soychicano.com) a while back. I’d like to think we have grown in friendship ever since.
^^^ I guess you are not letting me have the last word.
Indeed, should an affirmative action program, which requires a certain number of positions be allocated for midgets, be forced upon the National Basketball Association so that the “diversity” of those who are relatively short in stature can be realized in professional sports? That to me seems absurd, much like race based affirmative action programs. –Observer
Does the National Basketball Associate receive federal assistance from the federal government?
HP,
I’m back. I don’t want to make this a full-blown discussion on affirmative action. Actually, I’m tired of the topic. Although I favor affirmative action, I also know that it only affects the most selective institutions, which is a tiny portion of higher education.
But, I do want to address a couple of your points. First, I definitely have seen the grades and what schooling looks like for Latina/o students in California, and to a lesser extent nationwide. I know that our grades and test scores are lower, and that serious school reform is needed. There is something seriously wrong if 100 Latino students in California begin high school, 45 graduate and only 6 attain a BA.
What more can universities do, pray tell?
Maybe this is where I should write something about my background. I’m the child of Mexican immigrants. My parents emigrated as children and did all of their schooling in this country. They both went to East LA schools (Garfield vs. Roosevelt, I’m the child of a rivalry), graduated, and then continued their education through some vocational program or community college. Technically, I am not a first generation student in higher education. I grew up in the suburbs where outreach programs did not exist. By the way, I do know of programs that target Compton schools. I went to UCLA for undergrad. I was part of the first class to be admitted without consideration of race/ethnicity. This has had a profound effect on me as I saw first hand how the dismantling of affirmative action hurt our community as a whole more than it helped us. After working on campus for a couple of years, I applied to graduate school. Currently, I’m enrolled in a PhD program at UCLA in Higher Education.
So… what can universities do? A lot, such as lobbying the governor not to cut funding for outreach, or what he calls “academic enrichment” programs. What else? Well, maybe I’ll get back to you after my PhD program and see if I’ve figured that out.
The elite institutions do offer scholarships and do a lot to recruit the top minority students. Many also continue to use race/ethnicity in admissions. They do so because of the benefits diversity brings to the student body and because it is in line with their mission.
But here, lets assume for the moment that your right. That universities, because of Arnold, have hard budget cuts, and completely eliminate all minority programs. Even if that is true (which it’s not, but lets assume), you would still be hard pressed to argue that universities make an effort to limit minorities from enrolling.
I am right. Programs like EAOP are currently